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Familial Transmission of Personality Is Higher Than Shown in Typical Studies

osf.io

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Re: Familial Transmission of Personality Is Higher Than Shown in Typical Studies

#81
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people can argue they should not be held accountable for doing something bad, because they defacto had no choice (due to nature/nurture) - and people will take that seriously - then exactly the worse kind of people will never be held accountable. And folks on the fence will hop over it onto that side. Because consequences do matter for preventing most behavior (weighed by the rational and non-rational part of the…

This is conjecture. Why are the people on the fence choosing the dark side? Why does a lack of free will preclude the possibility of any kind of consequences?

Regarding your first point - usually because the 'dark side' is easier (short term), and life periodically gets hard. So it's often inevitable. Especially in the face of others doing bad acts to you.

Regarding the second - see my comment.

At least in the western world, most crimes require fault and mens rea. Those require someone being able to make a informed choice, which means having free will. If there is (actually) no choice, or the choice was based on faulty information processing (aka actual insanity), then therefore there is no fault and no mens rea.

The underlying belief (philosophically) is one cannot be good or evil if one cannot comprehend a choice or it's ramifications, or in fact actually effectively choose between options due to a lack of knowledge and independent agency.

Interestingly, this is why the 'original sin' in Christian mythology was eating the apple from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. [https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-0-3....]

So philosophically, before that point, there was no 'good' or 'evil' because humans didn't know of such things, therefore were just acting. Regardless of what they did, they were innocent, because they were incapable of being anything else. After that, everything they did had such knowledge as a factor, and were no longer innocent - because they could choose.

So, for example, if I murder someone in cold blood (aka rational/thinking/choosing), that is 1st degree murder. One of the most serious crimes in any society.

However, if I murder my spouse because I found they betrayed me right in front of me and lose my mind (literally can't think straight, and react instinctively without being able to think or plan anything), most locations will consider me not guilty by reason of insanity, and let me go. [https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/temporary_insanity]

This is already a great example of the problem, as MANY folks try to claim insanity already after getting caught when they are not actually insane.

Another example is if I accidentally kill someone without knowing such a thing was a possibility. For example, I'm out hunting in the woods. I see a deer, and (as far as I know) legally shoot it. However, it turns out that was actually a human dressed in a very convincing deer costume, and I had no way of knowing this was the case. Most of the time, I would be charged with no crime, or worst case likely negligent homicide.

As per the Supreme Court of Iowa, "In order to be an excuse and defense for a criminal act, the person accused, and who claims [temporary] insanity as a defense, must prove that the crime charged was caused by mental disease or unsoundness which dethroned, overcame, or swayed her reason and judgment with respect to that act, which destroyed her power rationally to comprehend the nature and consequences of that act.”

If we assert that people actually act based on their nature/upbringing and have little to no rational control over their actions in fact (aka no free will), then does it not follow that no one actually has a choice, and therefore it makes no sense to actually punish anyone for anything they do? Since philosophically, without the ability to rationally actually choose their actions, they cannot be good or bad - they just are.

And if we punish people based on who they 'just are', that opens another can of very nasty worms, and likely a lot of serious evil will result.

Re: Familial Transmission of Personality Is Higher Than Shown in Typical Studies

#82

I feel this factor plays a huge role in rich/upper middle class/upper-class people staying rich or growing richer. Kids that grow up upper-class imitate their parent’s approach to work and life in general, giving them an upper-hand. Many poor kids are very smart and capable but end up imitating bad examples early on, making them handicapped. One of the best things a disadvantaged kid can get is a good role model. Doe…

I'd say having a "stable middle-class" parent is the worst starting point to become rich. It's a sure way to become a similarly boring middle-middle class person - that is, a strictly conformist, risk-averse, boot-licking serf. Kid of a rich person will probably become rich because they inherit cash. Kid of a poor person may become rich because they are ready to take risk and usually have good social skills. That, or…

This isn't supported by data, of people in the middle income quintile 23.3% of their children end up in the top quintile while only 9.3% of people from the bottom quintile make it to the top[1]. The fourth and fifth(top) quintiles of income lead to the highest rates of children entering the top quintile.

[1] https://www.cato.org/commentary/upward-mobility-alive-well-a...

Re: Familial Transmission of Personality Is Higher Than Shown in Typical Studies

#83

I feel this factor plays a huge role in rich/upper middle class/upper-class people staying rich or growing richer. Kids that grow up upper-class imitate their parent’s approach to work and life in general, giving them an upper-hand. Many poor kids are very smart and capable but end up imitating bad examples early on, making them handicapped. One of the best things a disadvantaged kid can get is a good role model. Doe…

This implies one's being upper class is a reflection of having better habits than the poor, which is incorrect. They just have more money. Rich people could not survive poverty.

I grew up in poverty, on food stamps. I do somewhat well for myself. My wife had a similar childhood.

We have poor financial habits that occasionally hint (I won't go so far as to say that they "threaten") at upending our lifestyle. Just having "more money" doesn't protect. Our habits would, if not kept in check, squander nearly anything. We are, in many ways, our own worst enemies. I've struggled to recognize this my entire adult life.

I think when someone starts speaking as you just have, it has as much to do with social posturing as anything. You have to say that, to show everyone else how special and empathetic you are. You understand the plight of the poor, that it isn't fair and they're "just like anyone else". That if some windfall dropped into their laps, they too would be rich forever, because that's how wealth works. And when you do this, you see everyone clapping and murmuring to each other about how enlightened you are, and you get off on that.

There are better habits. The wealthy tend to have more of them (many more), and the poor never develop those at all. Mostly, I think, because if they have these habits for any length of time, it quickly becomes incorrect to refer to them as poor. These habits can't protect against all misfortunes, but they protect against some and they mitigate the rest. And when you teach people that these things aren't true, you're doing them a disservice. You're robbing them of the one thing that might change their lives. It's both bizarre and cruel.

Re: Familial Transmission of Personality Is Higher Than Shown in Typical Studies

#84
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is estimated that 70% of wealthy families will lose their wealth by the second generation and 90% will lose it by the third.[0] [0] https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/generational-wealth%3A-why-d...

What's the actual real world evidence on that? Plenty of rich European families have been rich for hundreds of years, and I'm not talking about royalty. That kind of disproves the theory. The ones who go broke fast are usually the ones who also got rich fast, trough luck instead of work or knowledge, like from lottery wins or speculations.

Comparing American generational accumulation to the olden European social quasi-caste system is a little disingenuous.

Re: Familial Transmission of Personality Is Higher Than Shown in Typical Studies

#85
post #9

Of course this is anecdotal but it's obvious for me I do share several personality traits with my parents. I can see the same in many of my close acquaintances. Of course this warrants a lot of social issues we simply don't want to face, but I always felt we were just trying to make them a tabu to discuss.

Is it nature vs nurture? If, so, how does your anecdote untangle that?

The anecdotes don't untangle it, but academics sure as hell have studied adopted kids for traits that match their biological parents. Even more over have studied twins with identical genetics who grew up in separate households.

Re: Familial Transmission of Personality Is Higher Than Shown in Typical Studies

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm presenting using heritability as an initial toy problem area for exploring building PPL/agent-based scenario models. I havent yet got to the point of building the model out, but it's clear very early on that any observational distribution can be reproduced. I will have a more refined view when I've done that. re Sasha Gusev: disease , to some degree, can be studied with these methods if you have interventional ev…

I understand your objection and of course you can't just naively get causality from observational GWAS. That is true. Your rhetoric does not match the strength of your scientific objection. Let's imagine the worst case - these studies are absolutely useless for indicating any causality whatsoever. Even then , they are still extremely useful because they can explain away lots of environmental variation in a behavior o…

I'm certainly open to speculative generative (, explanatory) modelling of human populations to see what distributions of variation can be reproduced (indeed, that's what i'm doing). I'm less open to the reverse process: starting with observational distributions and then just fitting whatever model suits one's prejudices.

There's a cost to the latter when we know, a priori, that the "scientists" prior belief about what models to use are the most significant factor determining the conclusions of the paper; and that we know that the data is vastly too weak to distinguish between priors.

Compare the same problem in finance: this sort of linear easy-predictability thinking was a major factor in the financial crash of 2008; and it's something now widely seen with great suspicion amongst the financial industry.. who are well aware that "crisis" and "saftey" are both consistent with observational data.

I would argue that we live in a world of "pseudo-scientific social science disasters", the entire industry of measuring people and classifying them is one big Science Crisis whose effects practitioners do not care about because they aren't the ones being fired and loosing all their money (or have rigged these measures to benefit themselves).

Against this backdrop of, what ought be, researchers "going bust", universities collapsing, and research paper stock prices near zero -- i'd claim "pseudoscience" is a polite word. Esp. when those who should be long bust are still publishing papers immune from their effects on society.

Re: Familial Transmission of Personality Is Higher Than Shown in Typical Studies

#87
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This implies one's being upper class is a reflection of having better habits than the poor, which is incorrect. They just have more money. Rich people could not survive poverty.

Some of the richest people I've ever met have middle class or upper-middle class appearances. They do make good decisions, have good jobs, etc. We see some evidence in studies that wealthly grandparents are strong indicators of wealthly adult grandchildren. We also know that poor habits deplete wealth quickly (like with lotto winners). It seems reasonable at least some wealthy people have good habits and that at leas…

Liking the aesthetics of fitting in with the proles does not mean they could survive

Re: Familial Transmission of Personality Is Higher Than Shown in Typical Studies

#88
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is estimated that 70% of wealthy families will lose their wealth by the second generation and 90% will lose it by the third.[0] [0] https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/generational-wealth%3A-why-d...

What's the actual real world evidence on that? Plenty of rich European families have been rich for hundreds of years, and I'm not talking about royalty. That kind of disproves the theory. The ones who go broke fast are usually the ones who also got rich fast, trough luck instead of work or knowledge, like from lottery wins or speculations.

There is a lot of real world socioeconomic data on it. studies usually look at the population in terms of 20 or 25% segments. That doesn't mean it is true for the 1% or 0.1%. That said, there are lots of examples of people entering and leaving the top 1% too, so outcome isn't perfectly deterministic.

Re: Familial Transmission of Personality Is Higher Than Shown in Typical Studies

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don't agree. This is only true if you think that people are deserving of a good life merely because they have a certain brain structure. If you thought that in the first place, you weren't much of a leftist to begin with in my eyes. e: Also - I want to be clear, variance is incredibly high even where there is heritable signal. The notion of X "can never be an astronaut because her genetically defined brain structur…

> This is only true if you think that people are deserving of a good life merely because they have a certain brain structure.

What does "deserve" have to do with anything? We're not in kindergarten, this is the real world. If she is capable of being a satisfactory astronaut, then give her the job. And if she is not, then don't give her the job. Whatever benefit it is you think the job bestows, whether that is a high salary or some level of prestige matters not at all.

This isn't hypothetical, we're starting to see this as a real problem in professions where the success of our country and government (and for everyone who lives within it) depends on our ability to ignore asinine "deserves" arguments.

Re: Familial Transmission of Personality Is Higher Than Shown in Typical Studies

#90
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the taboo the poster was referring to was more along the lines of discussion of actual free will, level of control of self, etc. My take is that free will is, 90% of the time, a necessary lie. Because if we didn’t believe it, everything would get far far worse.

I think free will is simply a restatement of the fact the future is unknowable and the humans are agents. You cant 100% predict what a person will do without duplicating the entire person and the world they are interacting with. Even if everything is causally driven by historic circumstance, it is the human that synthesizes that history and computes an action

That is not what free will is (philosophically). Free will is the belief that we can choose our actions. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will]

In your statement, there is no choice - just a lack of predictability due to unknown starting states.

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