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No "Zero-Shot" Without Exponential Data

arxiv.org

51–60 of 123 posts

Re: No "Zero-Shot" Without Exponential Data

#51
post #26

Quite a few people saw this coming. It is still early to tell if we reached AI winter again or not, but at least we can see that news are slowing down.

I think that depends what your expectations are, and what you mean by another AI winter. We're just scratching the surface of what's possible with the current state of the art. Even if there are no major advances or breakthroughs in the near future, LLMs and associated technologies are already useful in many use cases. Or close enough to useful where engineering rather than science will be sufficient to overcome many…

"AI winter" was a political phenomenon that happened because the AI applications didn't hold water to the hype, and all of the gullible people that invested on them got burned out by the disparity.

We are very clearly on that same path again. What leads to the conclusion that another winter is coming. But even the fact that people are talking about it is evidence it's not here yet, and as always with political phenomena, there's no guarantee history will repeat.

Anyway, none of it means people will stop applying their knowledge or studying AI. The entire thing happens on funding and PR, and the world is not entirely controlled by those two.

Re: No "Zero-Shot" Without Exponential Data

#52

I've always been rather upset that it's fairly common to train on things like LAION or COCO and then "zero shot" test on ImageNet. Zero shot doesn't mean a held out set, it means disjoint classes. You can't train on all the animals in the zoo with sentences and then be surprised your model knows zebras. You need to train on horses and test on zebras.

How would the model know what zebra was if it had never seen it? Same is true for humans.

Re: No "Zero-Shot" Without Exponential Data

#53
post #21
post #18

My biggest worry is the idea of generating data as training data. We're obviously already unwittingly doing this, but once someone decides to augment low-volume segments of the dataset with generative input, we're going to start getting some really crappy feedback loops.

Do you ever have novel ideas while walking or in the shower? Well, you’re learning from data you generate.

This is correct. To give more synthetic data examples:

1. Generate inverted problems which are easier to produce than solve. For instance, create an integration math exercise by differentiating a hairy function and reversing the steps.

2. Create (simulated) environmental data.

3. Use adversarial model competition, e.g. self-playing chess or training an artificial image generator/detector model pair.

There's evidently a commonplace myth that information quality starts pristine and exclusively gets degraded by systems thereafter. That's just easily, demonstrably false in myriad ways. That's why it's absurd to conclude that LLM output being in internet training data will cause model collapse.

Information-rich synthetic data can be created without humans, and it works. (Check out Phi, for instance.)

Re: No "Zero-Shot" Without Exponential Data

#54
post #15

This feels like the worst possible outcome of the current AI hype. We've essentially been ripping off the entire internet and feeding it to the models already, spending many billions of dollars in the process. It's pretty much the largest possible dataset you can currently get, and due to the ever-increasing and now rapidly accelerated AI poisoning of the internet most likely the largest possible dataset which will e…

Even if LLMs (pre-trained transformers) turn out to be a dead end as far as AGI goes, there are productivity applications for them, and perhaps just as importantly interesting insights/confirmations about how the mind works and directions for future AGI research/architectures.

The use cases for LLMs will no doubt grow as hallucinations are reduced, and they gain planning/reasoning ability over next couple of years. It'll be interesting to see what they subjectively "feel" like with these improvements.

Re: No "Zero-Shot" Without Exponential Data

#55
post #27
post #15

This feels like the worst possible outcome of the current AI hype. We've essentially been ripping off the entire internet and feeding it to the models already, spending many billions of dollars in the process. It's pretty much the largest possible dataset you can currently get, and due to the ever-increasing and now rapidly accelerated AI poisoning of the internet most likely the largest possible dataset which will e…

> not-entirely-useless but still quite crappy 15 months ago, general-purpose LLMs that have not been specifically trained on legal reasoning could score better than 90% of humans on the multistate bar exam, and these are humans who actually completed law school. General-purpose LLMs get similar results in medicine, and when the models are fine-tuned for medical diagnosis they're even better. And that was more than a…

> Progress is still tracking the steep part of the S-curve, and there's no indication that they're near the top yet.

If I understand it correctly, that seems to be exactly what this paper is suggesting.

Scoring high on the bar exam is pretty trivial for AI - the data needed for that is fairly generic and widely available on the internet. It requires you to demonstrate a relatively basic understanding of the concepts by answering a bunch of multiple-choice answers. If anything, I'd expect AI to have a perfect score.

Like I said, such an AI is not entirely useless. You can replace quite a few legal assistants with that, and I bet it could be used to create first drafts or to expand a core concept into a full legal argument. There is plenty of money to be made there, and it's going to make an awful lot of people jobless. But that's just replacing more-trivial jobs with automation, it doesn't add anything novel to society.

On the other hand, the actual difficult work involves being able to come up with completely novel concepts, and being able to expand upon some obscure but crucial stuff few people have ever heard about. Current models simply aren't capable of that, and the results achieved here with multimodal models suggests that they never will. We risk getting stuck with models which can do some trivial work, but silently produce complete garbage when you ask them to do anything providing substantial value.

Re: No "Zero-Shot" Without Exponential Data

#56

I've always been rather upset that it's fairly common to train on things like LAION or COCO and then "zero shot" test on ImageNet. Zero shot doesn't mean a held out set, it means disjoint classes. You can't train on all the animals in the zoo with sentences and then be surprised your model knows zebras. You need to train on horses and test on zebras.

Should we also try to teach children geometry and test them on calculus?

Re: No "Zero-Shot" Without Exponential Data

#57
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't there be enough known-good training content that we can use it to determine if a document is worth including in a training set?

There's not enough human workers to validate that at scale. If you want ML to do it... well that's a bit of a catch-22. How would an ML algorithm know if data is good enough to be trained on unless it has already been trained on that data?

The way humans do it is via curiosity/boredom/surprise. If we can't predict some thing well (i.e. we're "surprised" by it) then that both acts as learning trigger to predict better next time, as well as retains our interest to explore it.

Eventually AGI's will need to learn by experimentation as we do, but in the meantime ability to well predict a potential training sample could be used to decide whether to add it to training set or not. At the moment it seems the main emphasis is on a combination of multi-modality (esp. video) and synthetic data where one generation of LLM generates tailored training samples for the next generation. I guess this synthetic data allows a more selective acquisition of knowledge than just adding surprising texts found in the wild.

Re: No "Zero-Shot" Without Exponential Data

#58

Quite a few people saw this coming. It is still early to tell if we reached AI winter again or not, but at least we can see that news are slowing down.

I think we're in the beginning of a warm winter.

The funding is there but we're letting hype drive everything and not calling out the con artists.

The problem is we've had recent great success but still don't know how to get to AGI. But because we're afraid of winter we're not willing to try new things. We want to only compare to sota and think it's fair to compare a new method with a handful of papers to the status quo. That's not how the S-curves of technology work. Sure, maybe things don't scale but that doesn't mean they don't have merit or can't scale if someone finds some modification.

The problem is we treat research like products, not academic work. You need to produce everything from hard core theory to robust products to have an effective chain. But we seem hyper focused on the middle area. And for some reason people think products can be placing a nice interface around research code. There's still a lot of work you need to do and all those models can be optimized. They absolutely do not have optimal hyper parameters or even parameters.

Re: No "Zero-Shot" Without Exponential Data

#59

Quite a few people saw this coming. It is still early to tell if we reached AI winter again or not, but at least we can see that news are slowing down.

Dunno exactly what you mean by ai winter, but the whole gen AI thing has kind of got all the attention and even if that route slows down there are a ton of other branches fruitful for development.

Re: No "Zero-Shot" Without Exponential Data

#60

I've always been rather upset that it's fairly common to train on things like LAION or COCO and then "zero shot" test on ImageNet. Zero shot doesn't mean a held out set, it means disjoint classes. You can't train on all the animals in the zoo with sentences and then be surprised your model knows zebras. You need to train on horses and test on zebras.

Should we also try to teach children geometry and test them on calculus?

For centuries we only taught children geometry and one of them invented calculus.
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