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Boeing 737 crashes during take-off in Senegal

bbc.co.uk

51–60 of 87 posts

Re: Boeing 737 crashes during take-off in Senegal

#51

Unsurprisingly, it's an old airframe (built 1994), operated by a state-owned African carrier: rarely a recipe for good maintenance. It's quite unlikely that Boeing is in any way to blame for this. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/387749

One, that’s not that old and shouldn’t be crashing on take-off and two, the narrative that it’s shady African carriers that are to blame is getting old. In fact, it’s exactly what Boeing always says right before they are in fact to blame.

[deleted]

Re: Boeing 737 crashes during take-off in Senegal

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One, that’s not that old and shouldn’t be crashing on take-off and two, the narrative that it’s shady African carriers that are to blame is getting old. In fact, it’s exactly what Boeing always says right before they are in fact to blame.

Air travel disaster rates are basically the same across the entire planet except Africa. You are 15x more likely to die in a plane crash there than anywhere else on Earth. GP comment is on point.

The second 737 Max crash was also an African airline, and the same accusations were floating around right after the crash. Let's better wait for the investigation results before speculating.

Re: Boeing 737 crashes during take-off in Senegal

#53

Unsurprisingly, it's an old airframe (built 1994), operated by a state-owned African carrier: rarely a recipe for good maintenance. It's quite unlikely that Boeing is in any way to blame for this. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/387749

One, that’s not that old and shouldn’t be crashing on take-off and two, the narrative that it’s shady African carriers that are to blame is getting old. In fact, it’s exactly what Boeing always says right before they are in fact to blame.

That is very old for a 737. The 737 is designed with metal that fatigues over time. The typical lifespan is around 20 years - of course the exact lifespan depends on how much you fly and what the weather is like when you fly - each owner is expected to track flight hours and retire the plane before the metal fatigue reaches the point where the wings fall off.

Sure there are many Cessna type planes flying that are much older than that, and often used for more hours - but those planes have different materials with different fatigue characteristics and can be used that long. This is a 737 which is not expected to last that long.

Re: Boeing 737 crashes during take-off in Senegal

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air travel disaster rates are basically the same across the entire planet except Africa. You are 15x more likely to die in a plane crash there than anywhere else on Earth. GP comment is on point.

The second 737 Max crash was also an African airline, and the same accusations were floating around right after the crash. Let's better wait for the investigation results before speculating.

Not all African airlines are the same. Ethiopian air - which had the second crash - has a good safety record and their safety practices match what Europe and North America rules require (rules are different in different areas, and so it isn't an exact match). Ethiopian air would not operate a 30 year old 737 because it is past the expected lifespan. Other African airlines will operate airplanes that old - normally they get by with it but that doesn't mean it is safe.

There is no reason to suspect Boeing is at fault here. Boeing does have lots of problems to correct, but that doesn't mean they are to blame for everything.

Re: Boeing 737 crashes during take-off in Senegal

#55

Unsurprisingly, it's an old airframe (built 1994), operated by a state-owned African carrier: rarely a recipe for good maintenance. It's quite unlikely that Boeing is in any way to blame for this. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/387749

One, that’s not that old and shouldn’t be crashing on take-off and two, the narrative that it’s shady African carriers that are to blame is getting old. In fact, it’s exactly what Boeing always says right before they are in fact to blame.

For a major US airline, a 30 year old plane would be among their oldest and near retirement. United Airlines has an older fleet by US standards and their oldest airliner is 33 years old. For American Airlines, the oldest aircraft is 26 years old.

Certainly, age is not the only factor. Flight hours and cycles matter as well when evaluating condition.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/American-Airlines

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/United-Airlines

Re: Boeing 737 crashes during take-off in Senegal

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airlines are strictly regulated by Boeing/Airbus/western institutions, this airlines wouldnt be able to fly to safe countries if their airplanes didnt pass regular official certifications, Boeing and Airbus provide that. The same way as pilots are certified by boeing and airbus to fly their planes

It seems you missed the stories about Boeing using parts made of low quality materials and that the whistleblowers died under mysterious circumstances.

We didn't miss them. We have no reason to think those factors are an issue in this case.

Re: Boeing 737 crashes during take-off in Senegal

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d probably have used “skids off runway” or “leaves runway” instead of “crashes”. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-guernsey-68886071.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-67174117.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42680238.amp

And the referencing the essentially unrelated Max production issues in an article about the fairly routine case of a 30 year old aircraft in a developing country experiencing issues which might be related to maintenance is probably more egregious. It's like suggesting that the stakes in whatever the latest Microsoft scandal is have been raised by someone installing malware on their XP system

Or in this case (1994) Windows 3.1.

I agree this story is a red herring. By and large 737s preceding the MAX variants had a rather amazing reputation, which is part of the reason 737s are so ubiquitous.

The issues today are that the MAX planes are enough different than the previous planes, that they should have likely been sold as a different product with different training. And the second issue is the erosion of Boeing's formerly engineer-led culture through various business / regulatory shenanigans such as outsourcing and self-oversight.

Re: Boeing 737 crashes during take-off in Senegal

#58
post #4

> injuring 11 people, four of them severely (no fatalities)

From the description of the crash either there were some unbelted passengers or the injuries were from people falling off of the emergency exit slide.

Could be other things, too. Unsecured luggage, other loose objects falling on passengers. Injuries can happen to a belted passenger as well.

Re: Boeing 737 crashes during take-off in Senegal

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One, that’s not that old and shouldn’t be crashing on take-off and two, the narrative that it’s shady African carriers that are to blame is getting old. In fact, it’s exactly what Boeing always says right before they are in fact to blame.

Boeing designs from 1994 are not the ones that have been in the news for design and manufacturing problems. Boeings built in 1994 are not generally falling out of the sky. They don't have MCAS. They don't have plug doors mis-installed. Yes, that's not that old. But 30-year-old airframes have 30 years of maintenance, and by then, the maintenance aspects start to predominate over the design aspects as a cause of crashe…

About that...

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/24650-boeing-737-rudder-i...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues

https://www.flightglobal.com/pilots-get-guidance-on-new-737-...

And some recent rudder related issues on 737 Max

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/ntsb-...

Re: Boeing 737 crashes during take-off in Senegal

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One, that’s not that old and shouldn’t be crashing on take-off and two, the narrative that it’s shady African carriers that are to blame is getting old. In fact, it’s exactly what Boeing always says right before they are in fact to blame.

Air travel disaster rates are basically the same across the entire planet except Africa. You are 15x more likely to die in a plane crash there than anywhere else on Earth. GP comment is on point.

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