71–80 of 189 posts
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I purchased FSD in 2019 on the promise of self driving. 5 years later and still no self driving. There was also the promise of the car being able to self park. I would be happy if I got my money back for a feature that was never delivered.
As my grandfather used to put it, you paid some "tuition of life" for a lesson you'll (hopefully) not soon forget.
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Shouldn't fraud (for the end user/customer) be determined by claims made about the product at the time of sale, and not promises of what might be possible a few years from now? If you want to say promises of future features is fraud, then surely that would only be in relation to investors?
Of course not, a huge number of (if not most) contracts contain agreements regarding future delivery of product or services. This is valid and normal arrangement. The contract is a promise to deliver that. If you don't deliver, you have breeched the contract.
Stretching contracts in the way you'd do it wouldn't be good for anyone.
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"It's almost ready" is a claim about the product at the time of sale.
"Almost ready" as a claim is pretty meaningless. It's a statement of feature status, not a prediction of when 100% completion occurs. In software, "almost" can last years or decades.
2018: "By next year, a Tesla should be able to drive around a parking lot, find an empty spot, read signs to confirm it’s valid & park." https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1057690425710891009
2016: "In ~2 years, summon should work anywhere connected by land & not blocked by borders, eg you're in LA and the car is in NY." https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/686279251293777920
It won't be hard to demonstrate some purchasers factored these claims into their decisions.
This is about defrauding people who bought a tesla, not investors. > In 2020, Musk told a crowd in Shanghai that he remains “confident” that Tesla will achieve “basic functionality for level five autonomy this year,” referring to the SAE’s rankings of autonomy. Tesla’s technology, in 2024, is still at level 2. This reminds me alot of the Thernos case where she tried to make the case not about fraud but about an overl…
I purchased FSD in 2019 on the promise of self driving. 5 years later and still no self driving. There was also the promise of the car being able to self park. I would be happy if I got my money back for a feature that was never delivered.
Absolutely. If Martha Stewart went to jail for much less, a certain CEO[1] should be doing some hard time for ludicrous claims over the past 8 years. Some back-of-the-napkin-math: If we focus on the 4m Model 3 (& Y) vehicles sold that had these claims attached and assume that there was a peak uptake rate of 46% declining to 11% as these claims became obviously untrue. On FSD @ an ever-increasing price of $6000-$12000…
I think Martha Stewart went to jail for insider trading idk how similar that is. With OTA updates still could claim this could happen. This imo is less than both Theranos and insider trading like the FSD has disclaimers right? Unless the argument is Tesla is only valuable because of FSD and not best in class EV experience The pay package being declined by a Delaware court and now this couldnt have come at a worse tim…
"Stewart was found guilty on charges including conspiracy and obstruction of justice" [1]. She sold shares on inside information. She went to jail for lying to investigators about it.
[1] https://people.com/martha-stewart-fraud-case-prison-sentence...
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As the article explains, wire fraud is about defrauding consumers, and securities fraud is about deceiving investors. Tesla is under investigation for both.
Wire fraud is nowadays just a catch-all for "crime involving money". Regardless of all other specifics of the case, it is a certainty that at some point someone sent a text message or used a computer, so that's what the feds will go after. Ran a scammy crypto exchange out of the Bahamas? Took money from investors for a failed blood testing company? Raised money for a political campaign but spent it on hookers? Paid a…
Absolutely. If Martha Stewart went to jail for much less, a certain CEO[1] should be doing some hard time for ludicrous claims over the past 8 years. Some back-of-the-napkin-math: If we focus on the 4m Model 3 (& Y) vehicles sold that had these claims attached and assume that there was a peak uptake rate of 46% declining to 11% as these claims became obviously untrue. On FSD @ an ever-increasing price of $6000-$12000…
I think Martha Stewart went to jail for insider trading idk how similar that is. With OTA updates still could claim this could happen. This imo is less than both Theranos and insider trading like the FSD has disclaimers right? Unless the argument is Tesla is only valuable because of FSD and not best in class EV experience The pay package being declined by a Delaware court and now this couldnt have come at a worse tim…
Not specifically that, but Musk has stated that he sees Tesla as a software company.
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"It's almost ready" is a claim about the product at the time of sale.
"Almost ready" as a claim is pretty meaningless. It's a statement of feature status, not a prediction of when 100% completion occurs. In software, "almost" can last years or decades.
This site[1], which is a pretty comprehensive list of claims Musk has made and how long it’s been, made the rounds on HN a few times. It’s really incredible how much exaggeration comes out of the guy’s mouth. I don’t think it all counts as fraud, but at some point you gotta say Dude, Stop Talking. 1: https://elonmusk.today/
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A lot of people are really defensive about this. What's the big deal if X does well? Why are people so personally invested in pretending like Elon didn't do the world a huge service by removing Twitter from the control of possibly the most politically extreme and anti-constitutional subculture in the entire country?
I can tell by the upvote/downvote dance on the parent comment - people love their celebrities. They get really mad if you talk bad about Elon Musk lol I find it quite pathetic personally. I of course disagree - I don't see the "huge service". Everything from defrauding investors, customers, speaking out of school (saying he's a physicist in the early days), hanging out with Ghislaine Maxwell, stealing then tanking Te…
People have strong opinions about celebrities they don't know, don't have any control over and have zero material stake in; news at eleven. (The last is the only one that isn't sometimes true about Elon.)