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U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

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Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#231

Post by samatman »

alkonaut wrote: post #137
SamWhited wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling with what you meant by "it's just a language thing", that is of course true and what I was pointing out. For the purpose of good communication, everything is a language thing and language things are important. When we say "the police union isn't a labor union", we're people rejecting them from the classification even though they use the word because we don't think they fit in with our values. That's be…

> I'm struggling with what you meant by "it's just a language thing", that is of course true and what I was pointing out. For the purpose of good communication, everything is a language thing and language things are important. Ok fair enough. In english there is a distinction between just "Union" and "labor union". And under this distinction, a police union would not be a labor union. Language is important. Moving be…

> It's curious - perhaps related - that in English the difference between "salary" and "wages" also remains and is even relevant in some parts of the market.

This is a useful distinction, and I'm mildly surprised it doesn't show up in your native language. A salary is fixed compensation for full-time labor: the employee is expected to work during (usually) business hours, in exchange for a contractually-agreed amount of money.

Wages are hourly: the employee works when scheduled, and is paid an agreed amount for each hour they work.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#232

Post by nflblitz »

brookst wrote: post #209

I’m in the HN minority that actually likes Apple’s products and business model. I like the consistency the closed ecosystem brings, I like the product design, I like the vertical integration. But this union stuff pisses me off to no end. Apple has high margins and is generally ahead of competitors in things like sustainability and supplier responsibility (yes yes not perfect, I just said ahead). It would be 100% in l…

It's always hard arguing the counterfactual, but do you really believe that Apple would be the Apple you love if their employees were unionized?

Put another way, and before you downvote me to oblivion, what are the most innovative tech companies that have unions?

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#233

Post by bogwog »

brookst wrote: post #209

I’m in the HN minority that actually likes Apple’s products and business model. I like the consistency the closed ecosystem brings, I like the product design, I like the vertical integration. But this union stuff pisses me off to no end. Apple has high margins and is generally ahead of competitors in things like sustainability and supplier responsibility (yes yes not perfect, I just said ahead). It would be 100% in l…

I don't think you're in the minority at all. Just look at the massive number of comments any time some new iToy gets announced.

But putting aside the tech jihad for a moment, I'm curious:

> It would be 100% in line with the company’s ethos to embrace unions

What gives you that impression? I admit I'm a hater of all big tech, but I think an objective view of Apple shows that they're a brutally self-interested megacorp. Even if you believe all their marketing about how they are consumer focused, that wouldn't logically extend to them treating their employees well. It's not in their interests to do so (at least in this case), and Apple is basically immune to bad press so it's not like it'd affect their image.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#234

Post by [deleted] »

brookst wrote: post #209

I’m in the HN minority that actually likes Apple’s products and business model. I like the consistency the closed ecosystem brings, I like the product design, I like the vertical integration. But this union stuff pisses me off to no end. Apple has high margins and is generally ahead of competitors in things like sustainability and supplier responsibility (yes yes not perfect, I just said ahead). It would be 100% in l…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#235

Post by [deleted] »

trollbridge wrote: post #189

This seems to be part of a persistent pattern of businesses thinking they are above the law, and when challenged, the filing of endless countersuits and appeals. At some point, the democratic process elected Congress and the laws passed therein, and businesses exist at the pleasure of the people and their elected representatives, not the other way around. A business that doesn’t want to unionise is free to close up s…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#236

Post by polski-g »

jensgk wrote: post #86
mytailorisrich wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously in general it makes a positive difference for employees, that was a rhetorical question... I have listed two main negative differences it makes for employers. I am hard-pressed to find any positive differences for them... on the issues this touches it's pretty much a zero-sum game so if employees gain it means employers 'lose'. If something is positive for both sides then I think the market will eventually…

"If something is positive for both sides then I think the market will eventually adopt it on its own." In Denmark we (by law) all have 5 weeks of holiday per year (besides public holidays), paid sick leave, 37 hour work week, paid maternity care (m/f), reasonable notice of termination, reasonable rules for work environment, etc. All because of our unions. How is it in the US?

I have 5 weeks vacation, paid holidays, 40 hour work week, unpaid parental leave. I also make 3-4x what you make.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#238

Post by GeneralMaximus »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #57
sebtron wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of unions is to make sure the employees work is sustainable, easier, pleasant if possible. On a more practical level this means enforcing work regulations, if an employer is at risk of breaking regulations (intentionally or not), unions will help them keep the line. A happier employee is more productive and less likely to leave the company on the forst occasion or do anything hostile (stealing, selling co…

The purpose of unions is to extract as much as possible from the employer on the behalf of its members, or at least to extract more than the employer would otherwise have given. You do not contradict anything I have written nor provide any examples of how unions might be a positive for employers... Again, if an happier, more productive employee benefits the company then the market will sort it out by itself (For inst…

> The purpose of unions is to extract as much as possible from the employer on the behalf of its members [...]

This is such a weird take. Why would employees do that? Employees benefit when the company benefits. If the company increases profits by 10%, that's 10% more that could potentially go to employee benefits, salaries, etc.

I want my employer to make as much profit as possible, because that guarantees my long-term employment and allows me to ask for a higher salary. If the company folds, the union folds, and everybody loses their jobs. Nobody wants that to happen.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#239

Post by sensanaty »

mogiddy55 wrote: post #164
pashsoft wrote: post #103

It seems like most of the "union problems" in the US arise from workers clashing with overly-greedy, abusive employers. The employer generally has more power in this relationship, and uses that power to squeeze every last bit of value out of their workforce. The workforce has few ways to push back against this, with unions being one of the options. Maybe if other options were on the table, there would be fewer union…

The corporations are the only ones that can pay the salaries being requested by labor activists though. IMO, a lot of the agitation for higher wages as a universal right has a negative effect on smaller businesses, while the corporations (which are the actual targets) have an easier time adapting to changes in federal and state law, for example by compensating with foreign revenue. I can't imagine it makes starting a…

20 bucks an hour in some areas is literally unlivable. That's around 40k yearly (before taxes), and in the areas where the minimum wage should be at least 20 an hour, that's barely enough to afford to live.

> I can't imagine it makes starting a new small business any easier when you're required to pay employees $20/hr.

Why should workers suffer because some techbro wants to get rich from the Nth AI chatbot he shits out using VC money?

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#240

Post by [deleted] »

lupusreal wrote: post #208
pbmonster wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dues, I imagine. If you don't strike very often, the war chest keeps filling... That war chest, in combination with it being unthinkable that a big union goes bankrupt, and the fact that they are building real estate, pretty much means they can borrow more money dirt cheap.

I guess it just seems strange to me for a union to be so rich, yet their members can't afford to live in regular housing. I grew up in a factory town in America with a unionized workforce and despite the things people say about American unions, the workers there all did very well. At least until the plant was sold to private equity about 10 years ago... I hear bad things now... but for several generations the union s…

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