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The Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound (2019)

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Re: The Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound (2019)

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core of it is that speakers are bad at polyphony You can look at intermodulation measurements for some popular and affordable home speakers here. The TL;DR is yeah, you're going to go from something like -60dB distortion to -40dB when doing synthetic multitone tests, but I would not remotely characterize this as being "bad" at polyphony nor the primary reason for the Wall of Sounds primordial "one vertical speake…

I'm simplifying things significantly because I don't expect most HN'ers to know the ins and outs of pro sound. Dave Rat has a good youtube channel, he also has some sort of insider subscription thing that I've never bothered with. I wouldn't say his ideas necessarily translate to every situation, but, he really presents these ideas as tools to use in a toolbox, not as gospel. One interesting thing is that, we general…

One of the problems with modern PA is that it is hung in stereo. It'd be better if it were a mono stack right in the middle of the stage, but we can't do that because that's where the performers are and two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time.

So we do the obvious thing: We put speakers at each side of the stage, instead. This at least solves the obvious Newtonian physics issue.

But there's a problem with that. Now we have two sources of audio in one room, and the sounds that many in the audience hear are a sum these two sources, mixed together acoustically -- even though those two sources arrive at the listeners' ears with different amounts of delay (due to relative distance).

And when those two sources are playing exactly the same thing (an instrument or vocalist panned to the middle, say, as is quite common), that always results in predictable comb filtering for many people in the room. And it's the same comb filter across the whole spectrum, for all of the sounds (every instrument, every vocalist, every everything) that come from both sets speakers.

One approach that Dave uses is to try to make sure that each side of the PA is always playing something different from the other one. This might mean using two kick drum mics (placed differently), and two microphones in front of a guitar cabinet (also placed differently), and so on. One microphone is for the left speakers, and one microphone for the right speakers.

They still mix acoustically, but because they're different signals to begin with, they don't comb filter as efficiently as they would if they were identical signals.

And because each of these things are all mic'd differently (with one mic per speaker-stack), one instrument's inevitable comb filtering will be different from another instrument's inevitable comb filtering. This randomizes (ish -- it can be predicted and measured) the comb filtering that is involved in the sum of the entire PA, and that can make for a better listening experience for most people.

(And where two microphones can't be used, like for a vocalist, then the idea is to do something, anything different between the left and the right output channels for that singular source. It could be different EQ (what a wonderful phase-scrambler conventional EQ is), or delay, or different reverb settings -- but it should be different somehow coming from left and right speakers.)

The math works fine. If comb filtering is inevitable, and it is, then it is better to have a random-ish mix of comb filters of diminished depth and that each affect individual musical elements differently than to have one singular and very brazen comb filter that affects everything uniformly for any given listener.

The problems with Dave's ideas here are this: It doubles the channel count at the board (which can be worked around just by throwing more money at it), it more-or-less doubles the expenditure on microphones and snakes, and it more than doubles the complexity of getting an initial mix working well.

But most importantly: It defies the conventional workflow of trying to mix sounds on a stereo PA system in a huge room like it is the same as listening to a high-end stereo system at home and sitting in the sweet spot. Dave Rat's ideas generally don't/can't combine to make a central sweet spot, or to produce a perfect stereo image: There's a left mix and a right mix, and they're both very deliberately different mixes that are each made from sources that are split up to be as different as is reasonably possible.

So the biggest problem with Dave's ideas aren't that they don't make sense somehow (they do make sense), but that it goes against the conventional target.

(But the conventional workflow that aims for the idea of precise stereo image as a target is kind of inherently bullshit anyway, because only a small percentage of attendees can stand in that sweet spot to hear that perfect stereo image at one time, while the other 90+% of concert-goers simply can't physically be there (because Newton, again). Most listeners aren't anywhere near centered on the stereo PA, and will hear what psychoacoustically seems to come chiefly from either the right or the left stack (because Haas effect), and will have no ability to be in a place where a good stereo image is possible to begin with. The conventional target sacrifices the auditory experience of many for the benefit of few.)

Re: The Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound (2019)

#92
post #52

For those wanting to listen to free legal taped audio of Dead shows, head over to https://relisten.net/grateful-dead or install Relisten app for iOS. All fan supported and open source.

Hey! I created this website and have been maintaining it along with my friend Alec for the last decade. Fun seeing it pop up here on HN. Thanks for sharing!

I’ve been using Relisten every day lately. Thank you so much!

Re: The Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound (2019)

#93

love how i checked HN with 5/28/77's Sugaree playing and come upon this post! love how today you can still see Bear's influence on venues across the world w.r.t the sound setup. here's to Dead&Co's Sphere run, it ain't the same of course but the music never stops (~);)

5/28/77 had a banging Sugaree, and is overall a top 5 GD concert recording IMO!

Re: The Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound (2019)

#94
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's true that they did that and why, I'd ultimately chalk it up as more of a flaw than a feature. Vocals never sounded great on wall of sound shows because they could never sing perfectly into one mic. This can be confirmed by listentng to soundboard tapes of the shows, and comparing them with ones a year or two either side - the full on Wall was only used for about a year. While the WoS laid much of the groun…

> Vocals never sounded great at wall of sound shows It was Donna.

Harsh

Re: The Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound (2019)

#95
post #59
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically i haven't really listened to most of the official live albums much. I tend to just go straight to the board tapes, which often sound better due to having a few decades of technological advancement - many were transferred in the 90s or 2000s. Of course they didn't have then what we have now, but even consumers by then had access to software for things like mastering that would have made any 70's engineer dr…

Two From The Vault isn't a "official live album", it's a soundboard that was shelved for decades due to the quality of the recording. I got this album on CD when I was in college (early 90s) and didn't have access to high quality taping equipment, and soundboards from the late 60s were very rare. The audio quality is absolutely excellent (I am just relistening to it now, there's only tiny background hiss, excellent c…

Oooh, thank you for sending me down memory lane.

(I took part in lots of tape trees back in the nineties -mostly Neil Young, with a good helping of Grateful Dead and occasionally some Phish thrown in for good measure. Then CD-R became a thing and we did lots of those for blanks+postage. Good times! (I even did DAT trees, as I had three (!) DA-P1s gifted from a local radio station going out of business)

I once got called down to the customs authority to explain what I was up to - they noted I got loads and loads and LOADS of seemingly innocent recording media in the mail, only to ship them out again at a later date.

Nothing showed up when they inspected the packages for drugs, so if I didn't mind - would I PLEASE explain what was going on?

Re: The Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound (2019)

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since balanced cables predate the GD, this strikes me as an acoustic implementation of an EE concept. Neat!

The history of balanced lines (common mode rejection, differential pair, etc.) is fascinating. Apparently the first twists (as in "twisted pair" to pick up external interference as similarly as possible on each conductor) were achieved not within a bundled cable, but between utility poles. Every two spans would constitute a full twist, with two single wires alternating from left to right on the cross member. But as f…

The cable pairs within an ethernet cable have different twist rates, to reduce crosstalk.

Re: The Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound (2019)

#98
post #52

For those wanting to listen to free legal taped audio of Dead shows, head over to https://relisten.net/grateful-dead or install Relisten app for iOS. All fan supported and open source.

Hey! I created this website and have been maintaining it along with my friend Alec for the last decade. Fun seeing it pop up here on HN. Thanks for sharing!

Duuuude yes! I adore your app. Do you have a tip jar or something?

Re: The Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound (2019)

#99
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been enjoying the music on your website for the last hour, very grateful for your work! :) Why those bands, and not others? What do they have in common?

All of these bands have agreed to allow people to tape and distribute their concerts for free. This is most popular in the jam band community, but you’ll find a plethora of other bands that allow it as well.

I see! May I suggest adding this awesome japanese band from the 60's? Les Rallizes Dénudés - not sure about the legal status, but there's a lot of live material and afaik the band incentivized bootlegs, perhaps inspired by the Dead!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Rallizes_D%C3%A9nud%C3%A9s

Re: The Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound (2019)

#100
post #28
post #4

Article doesn't mention one of the more interesting (to me) aspects which was how feedback was avoided. The solution is elegant: each vocal microphone is doubled, meaning there are two at each position. The phase is inverted on one of them, the singer sings into only one, and both are sent to the speakers via their channel's amp. The effect of that setup is that only the difference between the two microphones is ampl…

While it's true that they did that and why, I'd ultimately chalk it up as more of a flaw than a feature. Vocals never sounded great on wall of sound shows because they could never sing perfectly into one mic. This can be confirmed by listentng to soundboard tapes of the shows, and comparing them with ones a year or two either side - the full on Wall was only used for about a year. While the WoS laid much of the groun…

> It was totally impractical to tour with and they lost money doing so.

The whole system travelled in two articulated lorries; but it took so long to set up that eventually they used four lorries, and two systems. One set would be for tonight's gig, the other would be on the road to tomorrow's gig, or starting to set up.

I think the mikes for the vocals were three mikes, not two (you can see triple mikes in The Grateful Dead Movie). I can't remember the rationale for using three mikes. The movie also shows the WoS being set up, under the direction of Ramrod, with Garcia gently urging him to get the speaker stacks hauled up higher, because that would be "really cool".

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