Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop reading for fun • Hacker News Board

Re: Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop reading for fun

#301

Post by karaterobot » Wed, May 08, 2024, 12:13 AM UTC

akira2501 wrote: post #114

janalsncm wrote: post #56

> Indeed, several people I spoke to mentioned that middle-graders’ lack of phones created a marketing problem in an era when no one at any publishing house has any idea how to make a book a bestseller other than to hope it blows up on TikTok. “BookTok is imperfect,” said Karen Jensen, a youth librarian and a blogger for School Library Journal, “but in teen publishing it’s generating huge bestsellers, bringing back th…

> Kids don’t need to see digital advertisements to make a decision. They need access to a library stocked with recently published books that kids will enjoy. At 9 I had no idea how to go into a massive thing like a library and make a selection for myself. "Word of mouth" made a lot of choices for me when I was young.

I assume they were talking about the school library, rather than a big library downtown somewhere. Certainly that is where I first fell in love with books. Sometimes all it takes to make someone a lifelong reader is a good librarian with a shelf full of curated picks, eye-catching covers facing out.

As the article notes, school libraries are getting defunded and politicized, which is extremely sad to me, and disproportionately worrying for the future.

Re: Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop reading for fun

#302

Post by lostlogin » Wed, May 08, 2024, 12:18 AM UTC

tivert wrote: post #111

lostlogin wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument is quite subtle. There is a lot of book banning occurring and the rate seems to be increasing fast (see links below). There are penalties in some jurisdictions and zero teachers want to face the kind of shit that has gone on with parents and politicians, churches and local body meetings. So rather than search out each book they have and keep track of its status, then recheck a few weeks later, ju…

> So rather than search out each book they have and keep track of its status, then recheck a few weeks later, just remove the lot. That doesn't pass the smell test. The only way I can see that being even remotely true is if the teacher's goal is mainly to push up against someone's line, politically. Even in the most hostile environment, I doubt you'd run afoul of anyone with a well-stocked library of widely beloved c…

> The only way I can see that being even remotely true is if the teacher's goal is mainly to push up against someone's line, politically.

Doesn’t this swing both ways? Surely banning books is seen as a fairly extreme and intended to impose your views on someone else. What other interpretation is there?

Re: Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop reading for fun

#303

Post by janalsncm » Wed, May 08, 2024, 12:30 AM UTC

akira2501 wrote: post #248

janalsncm wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s ok, part of the joy of going to a library is finding out about new things you’ve never even heard of. And we also already have human recommendation systems, they’re called librarians!

I ended up in the government section. Reading reports about arms and equipment transfers from the US Government to the Middle East made in the 1980s. It was definitely fascinating, especially because the Middle East was in the news at that time, but I really was only there because I had _no idea_ what to actually do. I'm not saying the library doesn't have exceptional value, or that 9 year olds shouldn't be in it, bu…

Typically that concierge service would be the conversation you have with the librarian as you sign up for a library card. What kind of books do you like, are you interested in Middle East arms transfers, oh have you heard of this one, etc. If you’re 9 years old perhaps that would also involve guiding you to the children’s section, although it seems you’ve turned out alright regardless.

Re: Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop reading for fun

#304

Post by TillE » Wed, May 08, 2024, 12:47 AM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #146

allturtles wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're talking about adult non-fiction bestsellers. I don't think that has much to do with the reading habits of nine-year-olds. There are plenty of 80-150 page books being published for this age group.

And there are tons of novellas and short stories in many genres.

Pound-for-pound, science fiction short stories are perhaps the most worthwhile and personally enriching literary medium.

I love an endless series of giant fantasy novels, but I've read so so many SF short stories that really stick with you and make you think. As long as you're not going back to the old pulps, any decent collection is probably really good.

Re: Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop reading for fun

#305

Post by SpaceManNabs » Wed, May 08, 2024, 12:54 AM UTC

tigen wrote: post #288

SpaceManNabs wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teachers are leaving the profession en masse because they feel unsafe, unsupported, underpaid, and harassed by national organizations. Teacher unions list book bans as one of the primary reasons for leaving. They have data and testimony backing that up. We see legislation and organizations all over America. Here is a quick article describing the number of books being banned and the effects it has on teachers [1]. It…

From first principles, it is normal to ban material. The ages and exact policies are debatable but these articles are entirely one-sided. It appears that most of the handwringing is about politically disagreeing with the bans, not hardships of obeying bans. There are always bans. But they want this material (sexuality, gender, "race theory") available even to pretty young children because of their societal goals/agen…

> From first principles, it is normal to ban material.

Sure.

> It appears that most of the handwringing is about politically disagreeing with the bans, not hardships of obeying bans

That is not true. The ban list is overly broad. The hobbit is banned in some locations. Harry potter and asoiaf... Maybe high schoolers and middle schoolers shouldn't be reading that stuff. Multiple teachers in multiple districts have been disciplined over books they did not expect. It is far more sustainable for teachers to avoid this issue.

> But they want this material (sexuality, gender, "race theory") available even to pretty young children because of their societal goals/agenda

I am not going to judge this statement's veracity. Let's take it as true. As I mentioned before, the issue would then be that they are also banning other books that have nothing to do with this, and that still makes the jobs of teachers difficult. It is not feasible to have this much overhead on book bans because of political battles and also expect teachers to manage this overhead.

Thanks for sharing your first principles argument. If you have the time, please share some numbers.

Re: Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop reading for fun

#306

Post by mbesto » Wed, May 08, 2024, 12:58 AM UTC

bluerooibos wrote: post #99

gwbas1c wrote: post #88

Take a closer look at how much homework children have, and how much assigned, mandatory reading children have. I went to a private "college prep" high school, and the amount of assigned, mandatory reading was insane. I spent so much time reading assigned novels that I just didn't have time to read for pleasure. (And why read for pleasure if I already spent 30+ minutes reading a boring / awful novel as part of my home…

> rediscovered reading Any tips? I didn't, somehow. After leaving high school, then university, my brain went into full on "be productive all the time" mode. My brain somehow doesn't think reading is a good use of my time, so I've settled for audiobooks when falling asleep or on long drives. The last book I was able to devour and actually enjoyed was the Harry Potter series, which ended just before I went to universi…

In my mid twenties I had a mundane 30 minute commute in a crowded London tube which meant no internet (maybe thats different now). I cranked through so many books in that ~2 year timespan.

Re: Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop reading for fun

#307

Post by tpmoney » Wed, May 08, 2024, 1:07 AM UTC

alpinisme wrote: post #273

gwbas1c wrote: post #88

Take a closer look at how much homework children have, and how much assigned, mandatory reading children have. I went to a private "college prep" high school, and the amount of assigned, mandatory reading was insane. I spent so much time reading assigned novels that I just didn't have time to read for pleasure. (And why read for pleasure if I already spent 30+ minutes reading a boring / awful novel as part of my home…

Is 30 minutes really the amount of novel reading we find unacceptable these days? I’m not asking quite as snarkily as that sounds. Do you think the problem would be alleviated if the hours of class time were shorter and (maybe) handed over to a study hall period or even to just being sent home? In college I know the theory is supposed to be that one hour of class time equals two hours of homework (though that rarely…

For me as a kid who loved reading and fell out of it by the time I finished school (and then re-found that love decades later), the biggest contributing factor wasn't 30 minutes of reading for school. It was forced reading of books that were uninteresting to me in the first place, and then having to engage with those books in a wholly artificial way.

There's a lot of interesting things to be gleaned from books and certainly expanding students horizons is not in and of itself a bad idea. But school reading is painful, whether it's 10 minutes or 4 hours. You're given pre-selected material with pre-selected lessons to be taken from that material. You are expected to write summaries that explain why the curtains in the foyer of this book were blue (regardless of whether there's actually a reason the author did that or if the lesson planner just hallucinated some meaning out of thin air), and then discuss obvious lessons in non-fiction materials as if there was any other purpose to writing the book in question except to present that lesson. Sometimes you're given books to read that match whatever the current hot social topic is, again without regard to the quality of the books, and then expected to regurgitate the correct opinions on that topic as if the book presented those opinions, and again without regard to what the book actually said (or failed to say).

Reading in schools is presented and treated with the rigor of a mathematical proof, and the soullessness of dispassionate scientific observation of dying rats. It should be no wonder that what that is the experience of children with reading, so many fail to find a hobby or pleasure in it. We don't seem surprised when most students don't do mathematical formulas in their spare time after learning it in school, why should reading be any different?

Re: Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop reading for fun

#308

Post by tpmoney » Wed, May 08, 2024, 1:17 AM UTC

bluerooibos wrote: post #99

gwbas1c wrote: post #88

Take a closer look at how much homework children have, and how much assigned, mandatory reading children have. I went to a private "college prep" high school, and the amount of assigned, mandatory reading was insane. I spent so much time reading assigned novels that I just didn't have time to read for pleasure. (And why read for pleasure if I already spent 30+ minutes reading a boring / awful novel as part of my home…

> rediscovered reading Any tips? I didn't, somehow. After leaving high school, then university, my brain went into full on "be productive all the time" mode. My brain somehow doesn't think reading is a good use of my time, so I've settled for audiobooks when falling asleep or on long drives. The last book I was able to devour and actually enjoyed was the Harry Potter series, which ended just before I went to universi…

If you're into fiction, can I suggest looking for short story magazines in your preferred genre. Look novels are great and all, and I love devouring a book that really hooks into me, but the modern publishing landscape is full of 500+ page books that are part 3 of a 48 book series. That can be overwhelming and certainly difficult to drag yourself into if you're not in the habit of reading.

Sort story magazines introduce you to multiple authors and multiple stories, most of which could be read in 30 minutes before bed, and give you a chance to enjoy reading for fun without committing to a who "extended universe" of material you feel like you have to know.

If SF&F is your preferred genre, "Asimov's", "Analog", and "Fantasy and Science Fiction" are old staples that are still being published. "Locus", "Lightspeed" and "Strange Horizons" are also options, with Lightspeed and Strange Horizons being relative newcomers to the field. weightlessbooks.com carries a couple of those and some magazine in other genres too if SF&F aren't your jam.

Re: Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop reading for fun

#309

Post by throwaway2037 » Wed, May 08, 2024, 1:20 AM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #88

Take a closer look at how much homework children have, and how much assigned, mandatory reading children have. I went to a private "college prep" high school, and the amount of assigned, mandatory reading was insane. I spent so much time reading assigned novels that I just didn't have time to read for pleasure. (And why read for pleasure if I already spent 30+ minutes reading a boring / awful novel as part of my home…

I never understand why we are forced to read so much of the literary canon. Most of it is so hard to read, and so unenjoyable. Many of them could be re-written in a more enjoyable way for young children, through teenagers. I am exactly like you: I hardly ever read for pleasure when I was younger unless there was a blatant bride ("award") awaiting me. Most of the time, I was underwater reading some garbage prose from 1850 that doesn't stay with me today.

Re: Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop reading for fun

#310

Post by __MatrixMan__ » Wed, May 08, 2024, 1:25 AM UTC

alpinisme wrote: post #273

gwbas1c wrote: post #88

Take a closer look at how much homework children have, and how much assigned, mandatory reading children have. I went to a private "college prep" high school, and the amount of assigned, mandatory reading was insane. I spent so much time reading assigned novels that I just didn't have time to read for pleasure. (And why read for pleasure if I already spent 30+ minutes reading a boring / awful novel as part of my home…

Is 30 minutes really the amount of novel reading we find unacceptable these days? I’m not asking quite as snarkily as that sounds. Do you think the problem would be alleviated if the hours of class time were shorter and (maybe) handed over to a study hall period or even to just being sent home? In college I know the theory is supposed to be that one hour of class time equals two hours of homework (though that rarely…

Several high school teachers I know don't assign long reading sessions because their students are dealing with some kind of unstable home life (or are homeless) and don't have an appropriate setting for it outside of class. That is, they avoid it because it injects a class bias into their grades.

Given that, making space within the school day for such things seems like a good idea.