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MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

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Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#771

Post by P_I_Staker »

KorematsuFredt wrote: post #586
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

A lot of things have "said purpose" and the "real purpose" because of which such absolutely kafkaesque things survive in organizations. The said purpose of-course is to make sure that the candidate is "committed to diversity". We can argue all day on whether a statement is in any way good measure of it. It really isn't. I have helped people write such statements and we have always written it with cynicism and great c…

It's not that, the reality of fascism on uni campuses (in tech) is really bleak. Lots of people don't see the problems that don't bother them.

So it's not trying to off people for asking the wrong questions. They're trying to cut back on the assholes that say things like:

"Awktually, there is a scientific arguement that whites smarter than blacks" "I see you're black, but how ghetto are you?" etc. etc.

Some things may get blown out of proportion, but I think people that claim it's not so bad don't know how bad it is for someone that doesn't fit a specific mold.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#772

Post by CyberDildonics »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #763
CyberDildonics wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know any of that is cultural and not just something due to arbitrary choices made a long time ago that became standards? If it was cultural then newer designs like computer interfaces would be affected. Also you ignored traffic lights.

> arbitrary choices made a long time ago that became standards That sounds like a description of culture. > If it was cultural then newer designs like computer interfaces would be affected. Does the big TV run by a computer not count as an interface? Okay, do you have some pictures of chinese stock websites? > Also you ignored traffic lights. What about them? Yes Japan uses the same color scheme as the US for traffic…

That sounds like a description of culture.

So either colors were chosen because they have a deep cultural meaning or they were chosen arbitrarily?

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#773

Post by P_I_Staker »

nindalf wrote: post #666
KorematsuFredt wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of things have "said purpose" and the "real purpose" because of which such absolutely kafkaesque things survive in organizations. The said purpose of-course is to make sure that the candidate is "committed to diversity". We can argue all day on whether a statement is in any way good measure of it. It really isn't. I have helped people write such statements and we have always written it with cynicism and great c…

The pinned comment at the top of this thread requests that "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive". Bravo to you for providing exactly that. Too much of the discourse around this insists that these statements are useless and counterproductive. But as you've explained, they do pretty well in staffing the leadership of these orgs with people who believe in this phi…

Hard disagree. The argument assumes bad intent on the part of the evil DEI and implies the only reason for the policy is too get rid of "troublemakers".

This is some peak choir preaching. If you polled people neutral, or those with the opposite opinion they would think it's nonsense.

But on this site you can just chant things like "all hail the gray ones, the ones that can't be silenced by the blues!" and be celebrated. In fact, I suspect there's a high chance of me getting banned for pointing this out.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#774

Post by TheCleric »

rayiner wrote: post #767
TheCleric wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your background and experience is meaningful. And, like it or not, people of different races frequently have differing backgrounds and experiences.

How's that not just a justification for discriminating against people based on race? Unless you're going to assert that those "meaningful" differences in "background or experiences" are necessarily positive, which is completely illogical.

I already described why I think they're positive. You remain unconvinced. Have a nice day.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#775

Post by Dylan16807 »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #772
Dylan16807 wrote: post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> arbitrary choices made a long time ago that became standards That sounds like a description of culture. > If it was cultural then newer designs like computer interfaces would be affected. Does the big TV run by a computer not count as an interface? Okay, do you have some pictures of chinese stock websites? > Also you ignored traffic lights. What about them? Yes Japan uses the same color scheme as the US for traffic…

That sounds like a description of culture. So either colors were chosen because they have a deep cultural meaning or they were chosen arbitrarily?

Those are the options, yes. Or a mixture.

Older choices affect newer choices, and consistent choices become culture.

Once upon a time, stock chart makers made an arbitrary choice influenced by older choices that had become culture. Those older choices being a general association with fortune, and a specific association with loss of money. (With intermediate steps, I think, but I'm being brief.) And those associations were different for different groups. Now the chart colors are part of culture too.

A choice being arbitrary doesn't mean it was random. You can trace the influence here.

But even if it had been random, it's culture now. Money in red has implications, and the implications vary.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#776

Post by KorematsuFredt »

KorematsuFredt wrote: post #588
recursivecaveat wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US almost no-one would say "asian" for any country west of Nepal. Sometimes they say "south-asian" for India or the surrounding countries, but even that term is only sometimes extended out to pakistan.

[flagged]

Read replies to the tweet https://twitter.com/USAndMumbai/status/1787772852084830251

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#777

Post by KorematsuFredt »

akavi wrote: post #721
KorematsuFredt wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

South Asian is not "reasonable" it is pretty much racist. We white people could not be bothered with actually noticing the difference between Pakistan and India is the reason. > Lingayats from Vaishnavites This tells me you are probably some kind of humanities graduate from some murican university ?

I'm Indian-American, as I stated above, and the list of subcategories are my own ethnic taxonomy. I'm not sure what part of the Lingayat distinction bothers you. My grandparents would characterize it as "Lingayat" vs "Brahmina"; would you have preferred that framing?

I don't care about whatever you frame. South Asia = Pakistan.

Read replies to this: https://twitter.com/USAndMumbai/status/1787772852084830251

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#778

Post by KorematsuFredt »

saagarjha wrote: post #750
KorematsuFredt wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

\> Posts some Hinduvta nonsense as fact \> Everyone rightfully goes “bro wtf are you talking about” \> Guess the triggered snowflakes are really just proving my point

Read responses to this tweet: https://twitter.com/USAndMumbai/status/1787772852084830251

May be in the HN bubble "South Asia" is an expected term, very likely because HN crowd might be subjected to far left academia. But it is offensive and racist for actual Indians.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#779

Post by CyberDildonics »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #775
CyberDildonics wrote: post #772

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a description of culture. So either colors were chosen because they have a deep cultural meaning or they were chosen arbitrarily?

Those are the options, yes. Or a mixture. Older choices affect newer choices, and consistent choices become culture. Once upon a time, stock chart makers made an arbitrary choice influenced by older choices that had become culture. Those older choices being a general association with fortune, and a specific association with loss of money. (With intermediate steps, I think, but I'm being brief.) And those associations…

So now ui choices in different countries is because of deep cultural meaning, but they could be arbitrary, but that doesn't mean it's random and now the arbitrary choice is now the culture? Seems like circular logic to rationalize arbitrary choices made anonymously.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#780

Post by SergeAx »

sensanaty wrote: post #415

The western idea of DEI has always puzzled me ever since I first came across it (or at least the D portion of DEI, which in my mind is the most important one). I'm a Serb by blood and grew up in and have lived in Indonesia for the majority of my life, and I went to an international school with kids from quite literally every single corner of the earth, many of them being some exotic mix of various ethnicities. Despit…

This is all true until you 30-something. You won't believe how your family culture and values kicks in when you become full-scale adult with non-delegateable responsibilities and other adult-life quirks. And then a midlife crisis punches you in the head. Just wait, the interesting times are ahead)
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