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As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

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Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#321

Post by cyberax »

photonthug wrote: post #168
cyberax wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In free market it's also OK to cut costs as much as possible, making chair that explode and kill the user one day after the warranty expires. That's why we have regulation: to establish the minimum standards. Simple medical devices like wheelchairs (Class I or Class II) are also not super over-regulated, you don't need to do clinical trials to certify them. All-in-all it'll cost you around $10m, which is not at all a…

> All-in-all it'll cost you around $10m, which is not at all a moat. Ok, I know we’re assuming electric wheel chairs, we don’t want fires or stuck accelerators, but really? This is still fairly close to literally reinventing the wheel, or adding complexity, a RC car. It’s pretty sad to think this level of almost Stone Age technology only needs a 10 million dollar investment to bootstrap.

> This is still fairly close to literally reinventing the wheel, or adding complexity, a RC car.

It's really not. If your chair overturns and traps a disabled user, it can be a death sentence for them. If your battery starts burning, your user _might_ _not_ _be_ _able_ to escape the flame.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#322

Post by Gormo »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #158
wolverine876 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The first step is to stop thinking of "the public" as a monolithic entity whose interests are pursued by the government, and instead recognize that control over things that have a major impact on the lives, welfare, freedom, and prosperity need to be things they can effectively control or opt-out of as individuals. If AI takes over the world, or others pump lots of GHG into the air and cause climate change, or some…

> If AI takes over the world, This is a potential concern, but no currently-existing computer system (that I'm aware of) is any kind of risk for that. Certainly, nothing OpenAI has produced is. I'd say the currently-real unaligned-agent behaviour of our institutions is a bigger risk than currently-fictional computer-instantiated unaligned superintelligence. And we do have regulation in place to constrain the behaviou…

> The unaligned agent problem was not discovered by the AI safety people. They merely named it.

In other disciplines, this is known as the "principal-agent problem" [1] or "fiduciary risk" [2].

Like you, I'm far more worried about the behavior of human institutions controlled by third parties with their own agendas than I am about the behavior of software that implements stochastic algorithms.

The risk in both cases comes from people surrendering their own agency and autonomy to external parties, and we already live in a word where too many people put blind faith in dysfunctional institutions which are demonstrably "unaligned" with the actual values and interests of those they pretend to act on behalf of. Turning to those very institutions to stop people from relying on "unaligned" software seems absolutely insane.

----

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary#Accountability

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#323

Post by vkou »

eru wrote: post #309
vkou wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similarly, it's good for both states to have the same or similar rules on drugs, but no need to force them I can't wait for drugs having to be certified safe in 50 different jurisdictions, instead of one, with 50 different agencies, each with a different set of politicians putting their thumbs on the scale having their own rules for them. That'll really bring down medical costs, and will not at all destroy the incr…

States can voluntarily choose to have a unified certification process, exactly to enjoy the economies of scale you are describing. > I also can't wait for the cross-state litigation when an upstream state's equivalent of the EPA will be paid off to allow a firm to dump toxic waste into a river, that will be poisoning the people downstream. How much is that happening between eg Canada and the US at the moment?

So, the best case outcome is a less-democratic version of status quo (just like how California unilaterally drives ~all automotive regulations in the country, with nobody else having any input on them, despite every state having the 'freedom' to make their own), and the worst-case is a complete collapse of the common market.

Is that really what you want? It sounds absolutely mad to me. Your ideology is driving you to ask for a monkey's paw.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#324

Post by eru »

vkou wrote: post #323
eru wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

States can voluntarily choose to have a unified certification process, exactly to enjoy the economies of scale you are describing. > I also can't wait for the cross-state litigation when an upstream state's equivalent of the EPA will be paid off to allow a firm to dump toxic waste into a river, that will be poisoning the people downstream. How much is that happening between eg Canada and the US at the moment?

So, the best case outcome is a less-democratic version of status quo (just like how California unilaterally drives ~all automotive regulations in the country, with nobody else having any input on them, despite every state having the 'freedom' to make their own), and the worst-case is a complete collapse of the common market. Is that really what you want? It sounds absolutely mad to me. Your ideology is driving you to…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_MUTCD-influenced... shows that different states in the US have slightly different road traffic signs.

And yes, voluntarily following an example is better than being forced to follow an example. Duh.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#326

Post by vkou »

eru wrote: post #324
vkou wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the best case outcome is a less-democratic version of status quo (just like how California unilaterally drives ~all automotive regulations in the country, with nobody else having any input on them, despite every state having the 'freedom' to make their own), and the worst-case is a complete collapse of the common market. Is that really what you want? It sounds absolutely mad to me. Your ideology is driving you to…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_MUTCD-influenced... shows that different states in the US have slightly different road traffic signs. And yes, voluntarily following an example is better than being forced to follow an example. Duh.

I'm not talking about road signs, which is completely irrelevant to problems common markets solve, I'm talking about how California can unilaterally apply its emissions regulations to the whole country, by virtue of being the largest, and most discriminating market in it.

Other states get the choice between not having cars, and following California's rules, despite having no input into them. Because it's uneconomical for manufacturers to produce custom, per-state models.

You're still forced to follow the rules, except that in the case of federal rules, you have democratic input into them, because you elect both the federal legislature and the executive.

In the case of non-federal rules, the largest state will set the rules for you, and you won't have any say in it (at least, if you want to have things like cars and drugs). That's not a choice.

Or, you could always take a look at how abortion rights are currently handled. Texas is suing people who get abortions in Colorado. Truly magical stuff. I'm sure the people in Colorado 'volunteered' for that.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#327

Post by beaeglebeachh »

vkou wrote: post #326
eru wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_MUTCD-influenced... shows that different states in the US have slightly different road traffic signs. And yes, voluntarily following an example is better than being forced to follow an example. Duh.

I'm not talking about road signs, which is completely irrelevant to problems common markets solve, I'm talking about how California can unilaterally apply its emissions regulations to the whole country, by virtue of being the largest, and most discriminating market in it. Other states get the choice between not having cars, and following California's rules, despite having no input into them. Because it's uneconomical…

[dead]

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#328

Post by tdeck »

seventytwo wrote: post #120
tdeck wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious what parts they were using in their design but couldn't find any actual open source design content. The website seems to be 100% fundraising copy. The idea seems good, I hope this doesn't turn out to be another piece of accessible tech vaporware.

How hard would it be to do a project like the voron printer project where it’s just the plans and BOM?

I imagine developing the project would be a significant effort, but I think publishing some intermediate progress is a good idea. It's very suspicious to me that this site is full of biographies and fundraising CTAs and yet there's no detail about the technical side of the project. At best, that's not likely to lead to a meaningful open hardware outcome that others can use and collaborate on.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#329

Post by jjk166 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #219
jjk166 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you can choose to pay that premium for a wheelchair, or any other good or service, evaluated by a third party of your choosing. But others, with potentially different requirements, should be able to choose different third parties who evaluate by different criteria. At the very least, you should be able to disregard a third party's evaluation of safety for a wheelchair. The idea that there should be one master ev…

What if the wheelchair malfunctions and injures someone else? What if my car malfunctions and causes an accident? Also, I don't want to live in world of frauds and scams and other crimes, trying to navigate it, for obvious reasons. It's also an economic disaster. You're doing an awful lot of work to empower already powerful people by removing democratic power over our society.

> What if the wheelchair malfunctions and injures someone else? What if my car malfunctions and causes an accident?

Yes, what if it does? Unfortunately getting FDA approval isn't going to do anything to prevent that. I fully acknowledge that regulatory bodies are good for dealing with externalities, but consumer protections do not fall under that category.

> Also, I don't want to live in world of frauds and scams and other crimes, trying to navigate it, for obvious reasons

Then, as I said, just stick with the FDA approved products. Government standards would still exist, you'd just have the option to purchase things that didn't meet those standards. The freedom to color outside the lines includes the freedom to color within them. You're not harmed by other people choosing differently.

> It's also an economic disaster.

Citation needed. Typically heavily regulated economies fare worse than those where competition is permitted.

> You're doing an awful lot of work to empower already powerful people by removing democratic power over our society.

We clearly have very different ideas about who holds power in our society.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#330

Post by konfusinomicon »

SpaceNoodled wrote: post #273
konfusinomicon wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

some senator just held up a bag on bushings for use on fighter jets suring a speech..the cost for a sandwich bag full...$90k

Well no wonder, he keeps sneaking in with baggies and stealing them.

so that's the secret side hussle that all the senators and congressmen get rich off of. forget insider trading and shady political contributions, bushings are where the money is at lol
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