Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

921–930 of 1001 posts

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#921

Post by emmelaich »

runarberg wrote: post #541
ipaddr wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To parse your statement we need to understand what genocide means to you. For most it means the systemic killing of every person of a certain genetic identity. Is that what you believe is happening or something else? If genocide is illegal than covering up would be the only logical move. Therefore it would be normal.

Genocide has a precise definition and has been codified in international law. I believe this internationally recognized definition mirrors what most people mean when they use the term. It does not necessitate the systemic killing of every person of a certain genetic identity. Genocide is outlined in the Genocide convention from 1948[1]. It is short so I’ll give you the whole definition here: > In the present Conventi…

The ICJ are NOT investigating Israel for the crime of genocide. This is a common misunderstanding. See clarifications by the former president of the International Court of Justice, Joan Donoghue.

Google for the clarification or read the actual text https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203847

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#922

Post by benja123 »

misja111 wrote: post #851
benja123 wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally don't support blocking Al Jazeera. It's not that I'm a fan of them or any news station operated under a dictatorship without free press. It's clear that Al Jazeera acts as the propaganda wing of the Qatari government, and Qatar, being one of the main sponsors of Hamas, uses it to effectively spread Hamas propaganda. However, the real question is what does blocking them achieve. Does it stop their influen…

The sponsoring of Hamas by Qatar has happened with approval from Netanyahu. Until October 7th of course. And the reason that Hamas headquarters are in Doha, is because the US government requested that in 2011. See e.g. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-fu... or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatari_support_for_Hamas

I'm not going to defend Bibi and his government. They have made and continue to make many decisions I disagree with. Like the vast majority of Israelis, I think we should go to elections sooner rather than later.

However, this does not change the fact that now there is an active war between Hamas and Israel most Israelis dislike Al Jazeera because they perceive to be part of the propaganda wing of Hamas with Qatar's support.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#923

Post by hqudsi »

C6JEsQeQa5fCjE wrote: post #445
kergonath wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a standard behaviour in theocracies. Being against the Al-Sauds means being against Islam (according to the Saudi government), other governments do that too. Being against Trump is being against Christianism (according to Republican fundamentalists, hopefully those won’t end up in the cabinet again). The State props up the religion by normalising it and undermining its competition, and the religion props up the…

> Being against the Al-Sauds means being against Islam (according to the Saudi government) Pretty much every of the hundreds of millions of muslims who live outside Saudi Arabia (and probably a large number of those who live inside it) laugh at that, and despise the Saudi regime. If you do not believe me, try talking to some and asking them.

As a practicing Muslim, yup I have no love for the Saudi regime (same with the Iranian regime, Taliban, etc.).

That being said you'll find a variety of opinions with the Muslim community both from Saudi and non-Saudi Muslims.

I imagine my relationship with KSA is similar to how some if not many US Jews feel with Israel. Just like I have an emotional attachment to Mecca and Medina which is currently under Saudi control I can understand how those among the Jewish diaspora may have an emotional attachment to Israel or believe in principle jewish self determination even when they vehemently oppose the government or have reservations about the modern state.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#924

Post by corinroyal »

chmod775 wrote: post #898
bamboozled wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha. And we're going to let the government decide what is "correct" and "accurate"? Ok, so how did all this unchecked exposure to propaganda workout for Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Palestine etc? Did it lead to some kind of "free thinking" utopia? Free speech hasn't been banned in Israel. Access to information hasn't been banned. What has been banned is a platform for foreign agents to easily negative influenc…

> Ok, so how did all this unchecked exposure to propaganda workout for Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Palestine etc? Did it lead to some kind of "free thinking" utopia? You did not think this argument through. None of the aforementioned countries have free press. They censor heavily. In all of the above countries the government dictates what is "correct" and "accurate" information. News outlets saying anything els…

You're confusing "free press" with "enemy disinformation campaign".

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#925

Post by flanked-evergl »

dunekid wrote: post #906
flanked-evergl wrote: post #860

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better way to engage than to allude to some TV series is to rather look for and present any information that suggests this is not the case, that suggests that there is in fact wide spread opposition to the war in Gaza and widespread support for an independent Palestinian state. Before the October 7, only 35% of Israelis (41% Arab and 32% Jewish) thought a way can be found for Israel and an independent Palestinian s…

I thought alluding to this part in Yes, Prime Minister is going to get across the idea of questionable trustworthiness of surveys. I did try to get the survey details from the given page though, but for some reason the survey page is not loading for me. Although the protests in Capital against the regime and ministers are pretty revealing . This is a month old link and things might have changed, for the better or wor…

The problem with protests is, it's not public opinion. So I don't know what you think it reveals. Poll after poll indicates that there is no appetite in Israel for accepting Hamas's terms, widespread support for military action against Hamas, and widespread opposition to a Palestinian state [1].

Alluding to a TV series is in no way indicative of the accuracy of opinion polls. Yes, Prime Minister is fictional. Israel is not fictional, the war is not fictional, the 1000s of people dead are not fictional, the 1000s of destroyed lives and trillions in destroyed capital is not fictional. Nothing about a fictional TV series is relevant here.

In reality, the Israelis are way more fed up with Gaza than it was 10 years ago and the support for a Palestinian state and peace with Hamas is not going to win anyone elections in Israel. You don't have to like it, but if you think getting rid of Netanyahu is going to change that, you are wrong. What might change is the government policy regarding settlements in the west bank, but it won't stop the war. The most likely person to replace Netanyahu, Benny Gantz, is more eager to enter Rafah than Netanyahu.

[1]: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/israel-gaza...

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#926

Post by lupusreal »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #775
lupusreal wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> china isn't a democracy because they have censorship, What the fuck even is this? That's like saying Pizza Hut isn't a hamburger shop because they don't sell french fries. They're not, but that's not the reason!

A democracy is dependent on people having access to information. Free information is a direct requirement of any democracy. It just isn't the only requirement of course.

> It just isn't the only requirement of course.

Right, and it's far from the only one the PRC is lacking. If a tyrannical dictatorship hypothetically permitted free speech, it wouldn't be a democracy. The most conspicuous lacking feature of a democracy in the PRC is the lack of legal competing parties and elections, so it's strange to hear that China isn't a democracy because they don't have free speech.

Incidental to that, free speech as a qualification of democracy is less than cut and dry; every democratic country recognizes some limits to free speech, be that as simple as libel and slander laws, wartime censorship (as America had during WW2), or even hate speech laws like most of the democracies other than America have. If absolute free speech is a prerequisite for having a democracy, then no democracy exists. If you concede some limits, then we're just quibbling the details. Probably, America "" banning"" tiktok still qualifies as having free speech since it's still legal for Americans and American media companies to say nearly anything they like, limited mostly just by slander and libel laws (e.g. infowars getting sued for saying Sandy Hook didn't happen.) Certainly on the spectrum of speech freeness, America is far further on the free side than the PRC where you can get your organs harvested for saying that the government should be replaced. The supposed irony guappa was talking about up-thread is farcical, you have to be out of your mind to think America and China are even remotely close to each other on the speech freeness spectrum.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#927

Post by jowea »

flanked-evergl wrote: post #860
dunekid wrote: post #798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure how many people were surveyed and what were the questions in these. I am reminded of this from Yes, Prime Minister https://youtu.be/ahgjEjJkZks?si=_6nlxJ1okysqH07U

A better way to engage than to allude to some TV series is to rather look for and present any information that suggests this is not the case, that suggests that there is in fact wide spread opposition to the war in Gaza and widespread support for an independent Palestinian state. Before the October 7, only 35% of Israelis (41% Arab and 32% Jewish) thought a way can be found for Israel and an independent Palestinian s…

I think we should still take notice that polls can be manipulated and we have to be careful with the wording. Also people are prone to agreeing to good sounding abstract things but then disagreeing and voting or acting in another way when it comes down to it.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#928

Post by nailer »

glass-z13 wrote: post #801
I_o_IllI__o_I wrote: post #719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

How is the parent comment [flagged] yet this one is not?

It's bizarre. Gazan social media happily shows the malls and beach clubs, car dealerships, supermarkets etc, that existed before Hamas started the war. There's literally nothing flag-worthy about my comment asides from it debunking a narrative about Gazan life.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#929

Post by racional »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #156
NewJazz wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netanyahu has also said that he intends to do an operation in Rafah regardless of whether Hamas gives up the remaining hostages. https://text.npr.org/1248276817

Israel's war aims have transparently been about both returning the hostages and removing Hamas from power.

Its stated war aims, at the outset.

By this point these aims appear to have evolved, and it now seems primarily concerned with encouraging what it refers to as "voluntary migration" from the Gaza Strip. And as a secondary aim, to incrementally expand the settlements in the West Bank (in the hopes of securing their eventual annexation).

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#930

Post by runarberg »

emmelaich wrote: post #921
runarberg wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genocide has a precise definition and has been codified in international law. I believe this internationally recognized definition mirrors what most people mean when they use the term. It does not necessitate the systemic killing of every person of a certain genetic identity. Genocide is outlined in the Genocide convention from 1948[1]. It is short so I’ll give you the whole definition here: > In the present Conventi…

The ICJ are NOT investigating Israel for the crime of genocide. This is a common misunderstanding. See clarifications by the former president of the International Court of Justice, Joan Donoghue. Google for the clarification or read the actual text https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203847

I’m not sure I understand what you mean. You cited a ruling from March 28th 2024, which imposed extra provisional measures in light of evidence that Israel was using starvation as a weapon of war, and ordered Israel to stop doing that. Or in words of the Court (Article III, Paragraph 45):

> In conformity with its obligations under the Genocide Convention, and in view of the worsening conditions of life faced by Palestinians in Gaza, in particular the spread of famine and starvation, Israel shall:

> (a) take all necessary and effective measures to ensure, without delay, in full co-operation with the United Nations, the unhindered provision at scale by all concerned of urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance, including food, water, electricity, fuel, shelter, clothing, hygiene and sanitation requirements, as well as medical supplies and medical care to Palestinians throughout Gaza, including by increasing the capacity and number of land crossing points and maintaining them open for as long as necessary; and

> (b) ensure with immediate effect that its military does not commit acts which constitute a violation of any of the rights of the Palestinians in Gaza as a protected group under the Genocide Convention, including by preventing, through any action, the delivery of urgently needed humanitarian assistance.

The original ruling is from January 26th 2024 was also orders of provisional measures, but crucially ruled that the court had jurisdiction over the case (Article II, Paragraphs 31-32) and that accusations of genocide were plausible (Article IV, Paragraph 54):

> In the Court’s view, the facts and circumstances mentioned above are sufficient to conclude that at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible.

The court has not concluded on this case, which means that it is fact still investigating the allegations. I honestly can’t see where my supposed misunderstanding lies.

1: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192...

Post reply on HN