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Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

theguardian.com

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Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#671

Post by mda »

guappa wrote: post #655
mrtksn wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's correct and IMHO its the right thing to do when shooting begins because when people shoot each other this is no longer a discussion and the press is part of the warfare. Remember all the Russian media and social media accounts claiming that its American hysteria that they will invade Ukraine? They denied and mocked anyone who claimed that they will invade up until the tanks rolled in. Personally, I'm critical…

It's a bit ironic how we are constantly reminded that china isn't a democracy because they have censorship, while we are free and democratic and don't have censorship (except we do). Italy is passing laws to be able to block websites within 30 minutes, without any oversight from any judge. (more details here, link in italian https://stop-piracy-shield.it/ )

One of them is 100 times more extensive. Ideal is to have none, but lets not pretend that magnitude and severity is not relevant.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#672

Post by int_19h »

A1kmm wrote: post #373
jolj wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd might want to watch some arabic al jazeera. While Al Jazeera English pushes s the progressive post-colonialist narrative in the United States, Al Jazeera Arabic gears the Middle East for a war by pushing a Muslim Brotherhood idea of a Sharia state, Salafism and Jihad. Both have the same aim, just as Qatar Airways sponsor your flights with oil money so you might fly through Qatar, Al Jazeera pays journalists so…

Do you have a link to an article in Arabic where they incite violence? I've spent a while translating various articles on the Al Jazeera Arabic site from Arabic to English with mistral-7b. Everything seemed to be very fact based, and was emphasising things like civilian deaths, which aligns to what I'd consider public interest. The Arabic text does consistently use the term شهيد (martyr) to describe Palestinian civil…

It's normalized enough that even the notoriously secular SDF in Syria uses that term for their own fighters, and not just in Arabic publications, but also in Kurdish ones.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#673

Post by int_19h »

jolj wrote: post #333
arp242 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't speak Arabic so I can't really judge that; I'm sure there's tons of stuff I'd find distasteful, but being distasteful or even inflammatory (within some limits of reason) should not be outlawed. All I can do is go by articles such as this, which don't really seem to cite the same "firehose of bullshit"-type stuff. Also note that the Israeli government spends tons of money to push Israeli narratives and viewpoi…

In most of the world outside of the United States, there are laws that relate to the concept of a "defensive democracy". For example the laws that outlaw display of swastikas in Germany are contradictory with freedom of speech but are aimed at denying a democracy being exploited by extreme groups (see ww2). The discussion here is about the actions of Israel versus Al Jazeera, not a possibility of banning Al Jazeera i…

> I am pretty sure Israeli spendings to push Israeli narratives in the US are minuscule

Quite the contrary, just look at ADL or AIPAC.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#674

Post by int_19h »

manderley wrote: post #508
Synaesthesia wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah well the EU isn't exactly a bastion of freedom. There is not freedom of speech there.

Clearly, law based on US definitions of terms is the only way to be free.

Not at all, but there are certainly matters on which US is on the freer part of the spectrum, and freedom of speech in particular is definitely one.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#675

Post by int_19h »

solatic wrote: post #569
afavour wrote: post #15

I’m not sure about “dark day for the media” but it does feel like a dark day for Israel. Once you’ve established that the government can unilaterally ban a voice for reasons of “national security” you’ve essentially given them a free pass. As Americans living post-9/11 will know, “national security” is a deliberately elastic term that can cover anything required in the moment.

> As Americans living post-9/11 will know, “national security” is a deliberately elastic term that can cover anything required in the moment. One of the genuine cultural differences between the US and Israel is that while Americans prefer greater liberty (even if it means less security), Israelis prefer greater security (even if it means less liberty). Which is to say, both cultures appreciate both values, but they h…

I should note that "there is a sense that the privacy violations are genuinely needed, result in genuine protection, and are not abused by those in power" also describes modern Russia, for example.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#676

Post by amitport »

jackjeff wrote: post #184
Beefin wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not a genocide by any definition.

The ICJ is currently investigating a genocide case against Israel. So I guess we’ll find out… eventually. https://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/01/south-africas-genocide-...

"The ICJ had to decide [...] Whether the underlying case was at least plausible"

This is false and shows a misunderstanding. Choose better information sources.

ICJ only decided whether it is plausible to allow South Africa to continue with this process on behalf of Gaza. It has nothing to do with the court's opinion on the plausibility of the -underlying- case but on the questioned legality of the process itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq9MB9t7WlI

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#677

Post by kristiandupont »

kragen wrote: post #605
dlubarov wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few questioned Ukraine's decision to ban RT's operations. This doesn't seem terribly different - Al Jazeera has very deep ties to Hamas, the enemy Israel is at war with, and has arguably been acting as their mouthpiece for propaganda.

i did and do. banning your citizens from reading the 'propaganda' of your enemy reduces them to subjects and foments further armed conflict. it's also a power invariably used to avoid accountability for petty corruption such as beria's garden full of young, beautiful women

Is the fact that you put "propaganda" in quotation marks an indication that you don't consider RT to be that, or that you don't think propaganda even exists?

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#678

Post by guappa »

_Microft wrote: post #37
afavour wrote: post #15

I’m not sure about “dark day for the media” but it does feel like a dark day for Israel. Once you’ve established that the government can unilaterally ban a voice for reasons of “national security” you’ve essentially given them a free pass. As Americans living post-9/11 will know, “national security” is a deliberately elastic term that can cover anything required in the moment.

I think it's neither surprising nor necessarily bad. Just think of how Russia Today was spreading disinformation and propaganda about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Banning them from the EU was certainly in our interest.

If we had to ban every media that has said a half truth, we'd have no media at all.

It wasn't in the interest of freedom. Everyone reading it would know it was the russian spin. But now we are not allowed to know what the russians think. After all thinking of them as humans like us is not something we want right?

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#679

Post by easyThrowaway »

int_19h wrote: post #631
easyThrowaway wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's playing with the same rulebook of Slobodan Milošević - He's trying to make apparent to everybody that if he goes down, his own country will go down with him. Frankly, it feels like the only hope for an end to this conflict is in the hands of the internal Israeli political opposition. I wouldn't be surprised if he's not stopped, we're gonna see the same... "approach" used with Palestinian people applied to whatev…

IIRC something like 80% of Israeli citizens approve of the way Israel is fighting in Gaza, according to the polls.

it would be interesting to know to what extent they're aware of what's actually happening in Gaza.

Also, given the vilification we've seen of those expressing sympathy for a two-state solution or the general Palestinian population in the last 30 years, I'd be wary to take at face value any poll without being sure they were done with some sort of guarantee of anonymity.

I'm pretty sure you'd get even more one-sided approval results asking the British about the handling of the Ireland border during the troubles, or the Spanish on the repression of the Basque population after Zaragoza.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#680

Post by _djo_ »

xenospn wrote: post #582
runarberg wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genocide has a precise definition and has been codified in international law. I believe this internationally recognized definition mirrors what most people mean when they use the term. It does not necessitate the systemic killing of every person of a certain genetic identity. Genocide is outlined in the Genocide convention from 1948[1]. It is short so I’ll give you the whole definition here: > In the present Conventi…

The US has killed over 400,000 Iraqis since invading Iraq. Do you think that qualifies as genocide?

Source? None of the organisations tracking Iraqi civilian deaths that have broken down figures by cause show that number caused by US forces directly.

If you're including indirect causes too, such as a rise in sectarian violence, deprivation, and increased criminality then, yes, but that's a different statement.

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