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Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

theguardian.com

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Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#601

Post by edanm »

Aerbil313 wrote: post #564
mrtksn wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's correct and IMHO its the right thing to do when shooting begins because when people shoot each other this is no longer a discussion and the press is part of the warfare. Remember all the Russian media and social media accounts claiming that its American hysteria that they will invade Ukraine? They denied and mocked anyone who claimed that they will invade up until the tanks rolled in. Personally, I'm critical…

> That's correct and IMHO its the right thing to do I'm in awe. I'm pro-censorship myself as a general principle (though not in this obviously unjustifiable instance of it), but please be coherent. How come the current semi-popular opinion on HN happens to be pro-censorship, when HN community is against censorship in every other situation?

> How come the current semi-popular opinion on HN happens to be pro-censorship, when HN community is against censorship in every other situation?

The answer to most questions like this is: there are many different users on HN. You might think the "general consensus" of HN is one thing, but you're talking to a specific person commenting on a specific article, who has their own views, not to a generic "HN user".

And note that different threads will have a different makeup of users clicking on it. E.g. I wouldn't necessarily be interested in a random "censorship" thread, but this one is about Israel, so (as an Israeli) I am interested. Since this logic probably extends to other users as well, that will give the thread a specific bias, depending on its subject matter and framing.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#603

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

angra_mainyu wrote: post #244
Animats wrote: post #150

"and block its websites." So this keeps Israelis from reading Al Jazeera. Now that's new. Israel started Internet censorship in 2017.[1] Initially it was limited to "terror group websites, online illegal gambling, prostitution services, hard drug sales". At the time, "due to warnings from rights groups that the law poses a slippery slope toward additional censorship, the final version of the legislation dictates that…

Europe has done the same with Russia. Also, I think a few other Arab countries like Egypt have blocked/banned Al Jazeera.

> Europe has done the same with Russia.

Yes. Which I find abhorrent as an European, and has made me realize even more than our countries are much less democratic than we officially paint them as.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#604

Post by dunekid »

DataDaemon wrote: post #26

How is this possible in a democratic country?

That's the bane of democracy, not to say that we have a better alternative. Because democracy has been assigned to be any system where there are some elections and people vote. Universal suffrage is itself is pretty modern. The decisions in bastions of democratic countries where in the hands of a few elite. What is the distinguishing factor of a high quality democracy is it when it does have a set of constitution, and is republic by nature. The rule of law is enforced. Selective enforcement is nonexistent.

On an assessment by these very basic qualities, the current Regime in charge can't be really classified as a democracy. It is an excuse for democracy. An overgrown military outpost formed out of crusade era objectives and European anti semitic emotions. Not to mention the oil and perceived potential of the region to be a western adversary. In the words of US president, US-UK still believes that if there were no Israel, then they would have to create one. Which is ironic, since they are the ones who created it.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#605

Post by kragen »

dlubarov wrote: post #581
kragen wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's correct and IMHO [censorship is] the right thing to do when shooting begins it's been a common observation since aischylos that the truth is the first casualty of war it's quite different to assert that the truth should be the first casualty of war, which seems to be your position

Few questioned Ukraine's decision to ban RT's operations. This doesn't seem terribly different - Al Jazeera has very deep ties to Hamas, the enemy Israel is at war with, and has arguably been acting as their mouthpiece for propaganda.

i did and do. banning your citizens from reading the 'propaganda' of your enemy reduces them to subjects and foments further armed conflict. it's also a power invariably used to avoid accountability for petty corruption such as beria's garden full of young, beautiful women

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#606

Post by edanm »

runarberg wrote: post #541
ipaddr wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To parse your statement we need to understand what genocide means to you. For most it means the systemic killing of every person of a certain genetic identity. Is that what you believe is happening or something else? If genocide is illegal than covering up would be the only logical move. Therefore it would be normal.

Genocide has a precise definition and has been codified in international law. I believe this internationally recognized definition mirrors what most people mean when they use the term. It does not necessitate the systemic killing of every person of a certain genetic identity. Genocide is outlined in the Genocide convention from 1948[1]. It is short so I’ll give you the whole definition here: > In the present Conventi…

I think it's fairly clear that given this definition (which is the same one I always reference), Israel isn't committing a genocide.

If you do think Israel is committing a genocide, I think one thing you have to do is demonstrate how what Israel is doing is different from any other war (e.g. war on ISIS, Afghanistan, Iraq as obvious examples).

The statute makes the difference pretty clear - it's the intent to kill some (definable) part of the members of the group. This is not the case with Israel given its current actions and lack of actions; it could kill far more people if it decided to, militarily speaking. (I say this not because Israel deserves any "credit" for not killing more people, obviously, only to make it clear that the reason more aren't killed isn't because of lack of capability, but because of lack of desire to kill more).

Of course, you might disagree with me. If you don't have some kind of way to distinguish between what Israel is doing and what e.g. the US did in Iraq, you can just bite the bullet and say that all wars are genocide. That would be a consistent POV, but that would also effectively render the concept of Genocide meaningless.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#607

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

brabel wrote: post #51
afavour wrote: post #15

I’m not sure about “dark day for the media” but it does feel like a dark day for Israel. Once you’ve established that the government can unilaterally ban a voice for reasons of “national security” you’ve essentially given them a free pass. As Americans living post-9/11 will know, “national security” is a deliberately elastic term that can cover anything required in the moment.

The EU has banned many Russian and Belarussian news sources since the invasion of Ukraine. The USA seems to not have followed through (as far as I know - as Russian news sites seem to be available).

Yes, and I'd say that was a dark day for the EU as well. Our democracies are now little more than a farce.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#608

Post by smallstepforman »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #607
brabel wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU has banned many Russian and Belarussian news sources since the invasion of Ukraine. The USA seems to not have followed through (as far as I know - as Russian news sites seem to be available).

Yes, and I'd say that was a dark day for the EU as well. Our democracies are now little more than a farce.

They’ve always been a farce.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#609

Post by dunekid »

gigel82 wrote: post #47

You can make a parallel with Russia Today being (effectively) banned in the US (albeit not via direct government action). Both are just mouthpieces of their respective masters and not a source of objective information. That said, banning media presence in Gaza by Israel, and the overall hesitance of western media to report on the devastation is very disappointing.

I think the said parallel is not true. Qatar is not a belligerent in the conflict.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#610

Post by UncleSlacky »

TeaBrain wrote: post #515
lukan wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Short term I think I'm okay if we don't have RT in France." You do. On the internet. An increasing amount of people are getting their (fake) news now exclusivly online via "alternative" news sources like RT. Banning one of those sources on television will just mean further entrenching of those people. ("see, they don't want the truth to spread" ...) " I'd be happy if there were more money to fund school and lessons…

RT France was still available online after the broadcast ban, but it was forced to move out of France in 2023 after the French government froze its bank accounts. From what I've read, the rt website is also unavailable in France without using a VPN with a proxy outside of the France and a number of other EU countries.

DNS over HTTPS also works.
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