MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions • Hacker News Board

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#441

Post by gotoeleven » Mon, May 06, 2024, 2:28 AM UTC

GIFtheory wrote: post #207

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

My first reaction to this news was, “fine, sounds like a silly requirement.” However, being a PhD graduate from a minority background, I really have to thank my advisor for the undergraduate outreach work he did, without which there is realistically a negligible chance I would have ended up with a PhD and a great research career. I don’t know what motivated him to do this work, but from a purely pragmatic perspective…

Not to be flippant but the saying "when you're robbing peter to pay paul, you can always count on the support of paul" comes to mind. Maybe you really are a super qualified researcher that is doing great work, but all I see as the result of this DEI stuff is sinecures and make work jobs and generally lower standards across the board. (e.g. the former harvard president, or the current press secretary)

I dont think anyone would have a problem with DEI if it was about identifying unrecognized talent and making sure it got the proper attention. Thats not what it is right now.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#442

Post by snapetom » Mon, May 06, 2024, 2:28 AM UTC

jiggawatts wrote: post #336

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

> seemed very "1984" to me In Australia, there was a recent introduction of "Acknowledgement of Country" at both the federal and state government level. Universities and other large institutions are also "doing their part". For example, in video call meetings with more than 'n' people, a manager will read out a statement for a minute at the start of the call acknowledging the "traditional custodians of the land upon…

Land acknowledgement statements are creeping into the US these days. I could be wrong, but they've been in Canada for a while.

There's been a bit more push back here. There's a lawsuit where a University of Washington compsci professor is suing the school for retaliation because he mocked the policy. He pointed out there is no evidence that the Salish people made use of University of Washington lands, so the whole thing is a farce.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#443

Post by juunpp » Mon, May 06, 2024, 2:28 AM UTC

xyst wrote: post #337

What the hell is a “DEI” statement anyways? The site is a bit light on what this means, only a bunch of satirical and sarcastic posts. Almost feels like it was generated by LLM. Is it something like this? “I helped a group of first generation, low income students apply to college and obtain $50,000 in grants” Not sure what’s wrong with this…

[flagged]

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#444

Post by zeroonetwothree » Mon, May 06, 2024, 2:29 AM UTC

avs733 wrote: post #389

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

> but is there anyone that actually defends these DEI statements with a coherent argument hi! that would include me, and I would ask you to think about the following question at the moment: You are wondering if a widely utilized, and VOCALLY critiqued practice is supported by anyone...then why would it be continued to be practiced. Generally what I have found is there are two sides to this - one of which is just tryi…

I’m going to be honest, those examples don’t really make me feel that DEI is serving a valid purpose. If those are the best cases then I will say good riddance. Uniformity of opinion should not be a goal of academia.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#445

Post by underlipton » Mon, May 06, 2024, 2:29 AM UTC

sensanaty wrote: post #415

The western idea of DEI has always puzzled me ever since I first came across it (or at least the D portion of DEI, which in my mind is the most important one). I'm a Serb by blood and grew up in and have lived in Indonesia for the majority of my life, and I went to an international school with kids from quite literally every single corner of the earth, many of them being some exotic mix of various ethnicities. Despit…

You actually explained the need for DEI.

>Yet if some HR person would interview me, a white-skinned guy, and then my best friend, a black-skinned guy who has African/Japanese ancestry, I'd definitely be placed in the same "bucket" as the white Dutchies around me and my friend with the black Dutchies, despite him and I actually having identical experiences and mindsets and not really having anything in common with the Dutchies.

If they're putting you two in different buckets, how likely is it that it's to do something with one bucket and something else with the other? I imagine that, on average, the white-people-who-have-nothing-to-do-with-each-other bucket is going to fare better than the black-people-who-have-nothing-to-do-with-each-other bucket.

DEI is meant to counteract that. It's concerned with the initial surface-level nonsense because the initial surface-level nonsense, driven by socioeconomic and political structures and implicit bias, is what keeps HR et al. from being able to reach deeper and make conscientious calls vis a vis diversity of thought.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#446

Post by eapressoandcats » Mon, May 06, 2024, 2:30 AM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #357

eapressoandcats wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American obsession with race is deeply rooted in historically having a large, enslaved underclass that was kept down using racial justifications and against which there is still measurable bias across all areas of life (hiring, police stops, criminal sentencing, etc.) It’s not unique to America but it is a major differentiator from other countries. A key thing to note is that many homogeneous countries are extrem…

Didn't you guys do the same to every other immigrant? Italian? Irish? Even us, slavs? And isn't affirmative action a form of open racial preference? In my country, there's no way a race would play any benefit in eg. college acceptance... tbf., colleges don't even see the candidates until they're accepted (with few exceptions).

This is done to every immigrant group, but generally most immigrant waves assimilate and are treated more or less equally. Through all those waves Black people were consistently and persistently treated badly, with things like official segregation, anti miscegenation laws, voting restrictions, redlining, and other unofficial policies and extra-judicial public murders.

Not sure what country you’re in but the fact of a permanent visible racial/ethnic underclass that has only recently won the right to vote among other things creates that dynamic.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#447

Post by zarathustreal » Mon, May 06, 2024, 2:30 AM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #194

zarathustreal wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that any of us could ever *be equal* has always annoyed me at how obviously absurd it is but I’m glad to see this has been written about before. It’s like we’ve already descended into 1984 territory and we’re all spouting about “equality” because it’s the “right thing to do” even though we all know it’s not physically possible. Equal opportunities are not enough, or so it would be said, because history! We…

The Declaration declares people were "created equal," and even that phrase has historical context to answer "in what sense?" Nobody is born with divine right of kings. That's the point. Other senses of equality come later and with good reason.

I disagree that “other senses of equality” come with “good reason.” In fact, I find it to be an insidious corruption of the meaning of the word to further the agenda of those in power. That’s exactly how evil works. Wolves in sheep’s clothing. “Standing for equality” while owning more wealth than 98% of the population.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#448

Post by eapressoandcats » Mon, May 06, 2024, 2:32 AM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #387

jimbokun wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every immigrant was treated poorly initially, but nothing compares to the special hell inflicted on African slaves brought to this country. With the possible exception of the Native Americans.

Sure, but you don't look at that, but look at race. For example, would affirmative action policies give priority to a white irish man/woman, a descendant of the poorly-treated irish people ~100years ago, or to a black person whose (grand)parents immigrated to USA after the slavery was abolished?

Yeah I think there are plausible arguments that affirmative action is not the right way to solve the problem. Mostly I’m trying to explain the dynamic that causes affirmative action to exist.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#449

Post by rayiner » Mon, May 06, 2024, 2:33 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #396

rayiner wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve accurately described the differences, but none of those things are relevant to the workplace. All the ways I’m actually different from Americans are just a source of consternation where I have to bite my tongue and remind myself that it’s their country and I have to put up with the dog in the office, etc. As to “cheap to observe” information: you might observe that Asian and Mormon communities socialize people…

> I have to put up with the dog in the office A company I worked for long ago decided that it was ok for employees to bring their dogs to work. This worked for a time until one of the dogs pooped in the executive's office. That was the end of that. My dad lived in a small town for a few years. He was friendly with the mayor, and asked him what was his biggest problem. The mayor said the town was equally divided betwe…

To be clear, Bangladeshis (and I think most Muslims) don’t “hate” dogs. There are dogs—my dad had them in the village and we had one when I was young. It’s a hygiene taboo. They’re viewed as unclean. They live outside—you don’t snuggle them or put your face up to them. It’s similar to their view of using toilet paper instead of washing after going to the bathroom. Or how North Americans view the Latin American practice of disposing of toilet paper in the trash bin rather than flushing it.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#450

Post by ckemere » Mon, May 06, 2024, 2:35 AM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

Applications for faculty positions typically comprise a CV, copies of 2-5 significant papers you’ve written, 3 letters of recommendation, a research statement, and a teaching statement. As I understand it, the DEI statement is supposed to go along with the last two.

Much of what is said about DEI statements can also be said about the teaching statement. At R1 universities like MIT, people are hired for tenure track positions based on their past (and future) research, and many teaching statements can be recitations of current hot topics (“flipped classrooms” “active learning” etc). But good ones (with evidence in letters of rec and CV) indicate that the candidate really has practiced what they propose to do in the future. To be clear, at MIT I’m sure a stellar teaching statement won’t get someone hired, but a patently false or over the top “I don’t care” one might give people pause.

As I understand, DEI statements are the same. If someone wrote “my philosophy is that we should perpetuate the structures of power and mediocrity created by focusing on wealthy pedigreed individuals rather than ability and potential found by looking in unusual places” that would raise eyebrows. Conversely, if they instead said “I TA’d for an international computational neuroscience summer school that gave opportunity to impoverished students from Africa and Asia”, people might think “That’s cool!”

But I think that most academics who are motivated by equity are not interesting in reading a ChatGPT DEI statement.

I do think that the conversation around this is really unfortunate. I find little philosophical difference between what people are looking for with DEI statements and what goes into college applications from HS students, but I hear fewer people advocating for getting rid of those essays.