MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions • Hacker News Board

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#411

Post by lupire » Mon, May 06, 2024, 1:37 AM UTC

avs733 wrote: post #395

neltnerb wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a handful of contexts where it makes more sense, like for a HR person potentially, without trying to bring ideology into it that's the place it makes sense since that's the place where you can actually implement the concepts. There are contexts where it is mandatory but makes no sense, like NSF Fellowship Applications where they're asking someone who is just finishing an undergraduate degree and is proposin…

> There are a handful of contexts where it makes more sense, like for a HR person potentially In academia, faculty functionally ARE HR people - with significant power

What does that mean?

I work in industry.

Is my my tech lead an HR person? My manager? My VP? My Board? My majority shareholders? If not, why is a faculty professor an HR person?

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#412

Post by lupire » Mon, May 06, 2024, 1:37 AM UTC

jiggawatts wrote: post #336

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

> seemed very "1984" to me In Australia, there was a recent introduction of "Acknowledgement of Country" at both the federal and state government level. Universities and other large institutions are also "doing their part". For example, in video call meetings with more than 'n' people, a manager will read out a statement for a minute at the start of the call acknowledging the "traditional custodians of the land upon…

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Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#413

Post by lupire » Mon, May 06, 2024, 1:39 AM UTC

lazide wrote: post #107

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

It’s just being conspicuous that they’re doing the performatively ‘right thing’, something academia is quite familiar with. That way they can point to their statement anytime grant writers/sponsors need to show their respective stakeholders that they’re ’good folks’. Don’t worry, regardless they’ll still treat their grad students as terribly as the law allows (and a bit worse).

Did you know that prospective faculty also have to write a statement about their research, teaching, and service when they apply for a job? Is that also conspicuously performatively doing the right thing in those job responsibilities?

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#414

Post by lupire » Mon, May 06, 2024, 1:41 AM UTC

j45 wrote: post #388

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

I think it would help to know what you think a coherent DEI statement would be. DEI statements as you're hinting can be quite performative and full of pagentry and then things slowly drift back to how they were all along. DEI as a field is new, and I find they are not given as much slack as non-DEI people figuring out something new and getting slack for taking risks and improving messaging. I can try to find a few li…

There are a boatload of bad programmers. Does that make programming bad?

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#415

Post by sensanaty » Mon, May 06, 2024, 1:44 AM UTC

The western idea of DEI has always puzzled me ever since I first came across it (or at least the D portion of DEI, which in my mind is the most important one).

I'm a Serb by blood and grew up in and have lived in Indonesia for the majority of my life, and I went to an international school with kids from quite literally every single corner of the earth, many of them being some exotic mix of various ethnicities.

Despite that, many of us are actually amazingly similar in many ways - We have a very distinct int'l kid accent that we all share, we grew up with extremely similar experiences, listening to the same music, being exposed to all the same things. Despite the superficial differences, I actually wouldn't call us a very diverse group at all when you really look at us. Some years later when I was studying, I met an int'l girl from the Bahamas and I was amazed at how similar her and my life were in many ways, despite being a literal ocean apart in completely different islands/nations. I had infinitely more in common with her than any other Serb I've ever met, yet alone the Dutch people I've met in my move to the Netherlands.

When I moved to NL, I instantly noticed that my friends and I were very different to the people there. Yet if some HR person would interview me, a white-skinned guy, and then my best friend, a black-skinned guy who has African/Japanese ancestry, I'd definitely be placed in the same "bucket" as the white Dutchies around me and my friend with the black Dutchies, despite him and I actually having identical experiences and mindsets and not really having anything in common with the Dutchies. This is, of course, understandable as an initial reaction, but my problem is that all the DEI shenanigans never get past that initial surface-level nonsense. I will probably never be labelled as anything other than "generic white guy" or perhaps at a stretch sometimes, the "eastern european guy".

I guess what I'm trying to get at in this strange ramble is that ultimately DEI should be focused on diversity of thought, and not just superficial characteristics, yet it never works out that way. Often the exact opposite, in fact, where viewpoints that don't match the superficial characteristics are often swatted away since those situations are harder to navigate than the cookie-cutter approach.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#416

Post by lupire » Mon, May 06, 2024, 1:46 AM UTC

avs733 wrote: post #389

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

> but is there anyone that actually defends these DEI statements with a coherent argument hi! that would include me, and I would ask you to think about the following question at the moment: You are wondering if a widely utilized, and VOCALLY critiqued practice is supported by anyone...then why would it be continued to be practiced. Generally what I have found is there are two sides to this - one of which is just tryi…

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Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#417

Post by lupire » Mon, May 06, 2024, 1:49 AM UTC

gedy wrote: post #114

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

I don't know if it's just DEI, or other types of politics, but there seems to be a recent trend towards "you must say you agree with us, otherwise you are ostracized". My personal opinion/observation is that as corporate and academic has trended towards less direct confrontation/arguments, this has resulted in a lot more passive aggressive behavior such as statements like these, some debatable "codes of conduct", etc…

I'm not getting into what's "masculine" or "feminine" because I believe that's contextually constructed nonsense, but I will say that some people use "nonviolent communication" tropes in a metaphorically violent way. I've also seen it used well to improve relationships and outcomes.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#418

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Mon, May 06, 2024, 1:53 AM UTC

j45 wrote: post #388

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

I think it would help to know what you think a coherent DEI statement would be. DEI statements as you're hinting can be quite performative and full of pagentry and then things slowly drift back to how they were all along. DEI as a field is new, and I find they are not given as much slack as non-DEI people figuring out something new and getting slack for taking risks and improving messaging. I can try to find a few li…

> DEI as a field is new, and I find they are not given as much slack as non-DEI people figuring out something new and getting slack for taking risks and improving messaging.

I don't think I agree with this. The only reason I think people have such an issue with DEI is that in has permeated much of their academic and professional life (in certain professions). To be honest, if you look back years ago you'd be just as likely to see people complain about the management fad of the day, but the difference with DEI is many people were/are genuinely afraid to speak against it for fear of the negative impact on their careers and lives. "non-DEI people" in new fields are "given more slack" because people just don't care if what these non-DEI folks are doing doesn't affect others' day-to-day lives.

> One thing was the difference between DEI and EDI. It seems EDI (equity, diversity, inclusion) in that order might be an updated revision that can help.

To be honest, the "E" in DEI is always the framing I had the most problems with, because in practice I've often seen it arguing for equality of outcome, vs. equality of opportunity, and this is something I fundamentally disagree with. Yes, I know what equity perhaps is intended to mean, but in practice I've seen examples where if the outcome distribution doesn't exactly match the population at large then some people conclude the process is somehow unfair and needs to be changed. This is not hypothetical, e.g. consider the kerfuffle when ElectronConf was canceled years ago, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14480868.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#419

Post by tzs » Mon, May 06, 2024, 1:54 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #138

worik wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Restricting access based on protected characteristics What about when you turn that on its head? "Promoting access based on ..." If you assume a finite set of places to access then the approaches are equivalent, but for the the emphasis I think it matters (I am unsure DEI is the solution) that people can access professional services supplied by professionals from a similar cultural background to themselves In Aotea…

> we have mechanisms to encourage Māori applicants to law and medical school I see the argument for setting aside seats for people who fluently speak the language. I do not based on race. ”Black patients hav[ing] better interactions, on average, with physicians of their own race” is a problem, but segregating medical care on the basis of race isn’t the solution [1]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC71…

I remember seeing a similar study that took place at a busy walk in clinic in an area with a very diverse population. People would come in and get treated by whichever of the doctors on duty that day was available.

The researchers found that when successful treatment would require the patient to follow the doctors instructions after leaving, such as getting a prescription filled, taken the full course of medication, doing or refraining from certain exercises, etc., the patient was more likely to actually do those things the more the doctor was like them in things like race, gender, and ethnicity.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#420

Post by lupire » Mon, May 06, 2024, 1:54 AM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #215

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #130

DEI is a strange issue in that nearly everybody agrees that it's a good target to aim for yet any action taken to get there is discrimination. I frankly see it as a cheap shortcut that some very privileged people want to take to try to wash away the sins of our racist past, not to help people, but to make ourselves feel better- or attempt to.

DEI exists in countries with no racist past. Does it make it aby better? Also DEI exists in places that were historically very diverse, like the Balkans (a mix of ethnic, culture and religions) and it did not help, actually, because it is highlighting the differences that we worked for hundreds of years to integrate. Fortunately there was no significant impact around here as people were wise enough.

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