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MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

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Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#391

Post by jimbokun »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #90
LaurensBER wrote: post #5

Although the intentions behind DEI are good such a top down approach doesn't seem to get the desired results (i.e optimal use of everyone's talent, irrespective of their colour, sex and/or identify). Unfortunately the name (and perhaps ideas?) are now tainted and I hope this doesn't impact the bottom up approaches (i.e support kids and young adults with extra classes, trainings, and in general just being chill and ac…

> support kids and young adults with extra classes, trainings If that support is available to those who need it irrespective of race, sex, et cetera , sure. Targeting underserved populations is one thing. Restricting access based on protected characteristics is illegal under any commonsense interpretation of the law.

Targeting underserved populations will necessarily disproportionately benefit African Americans because of the history of extreme oppression responsible for them being underserved. And I think that's a good thing.

I agree this can be accomplished without explicitly targeting race of other protected characteristics.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#392

Post by avs733 »

dgfitz wrote: post #262
GIFtheory wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first reaction to this news was, “fine, sounds like a silly requirement.” However, being a PhD graduate from a minority background, I really have to thank my advisor for the undergraduate outreach work he did, without which there is realistically a negligible chance I would have ended up with a PhD and a great research career. I don’t know what motivated him to do this work, but from a purely pragmatic perspective…

Perhaps you were simply evaluated against your noggin and not your skin? Edit: what are the arguments against this?

perhaps he wasn't. clearly we are at an impasse

Maybe put some value and engage with someone's articulation of their personal experience as opposed to simply dismissing it because it does not comport with your world view.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#393

Post by ajsnigrutin »

jimbokun wrote: post #384
llm_trw wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which may have been true in 1970s, today I get told in emails to pass over White and Asian candidates because we need more diversity. The sheer hubris of putting racism in writing makes me feel like I'm in a topsy turvy 1950s.

Yeah, it's especially confusing trying to understand how it's the Asians fault, too.

Yep, on one hand, concetration camps in US for japanese people not that long ago, and now discriminated against when applying for college...

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#394

Post by slenocchio »

pfdietz wrote: post #370
slenocchio wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you send me writing or video of any serious thinker advocating for this? The OP is a common straw-man characterization of the position I described.

> serious thinker No True Scotsman detected.

I read the article you sent, it doesn't prove your point.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#395

Post by avs733 »

neltnerb wrote: post #190
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

There are a handful of contexts where it makes more sense, like for a HR person potentially, without trying to bring ideology into it that's the place it makes sense since that's the place where you can actually implement the concepts. There are contexts where it is mandatory but makes no sense, like NSF Fellowship Applications where they're asking someone who is just finishing an undergraduate degree and is proposin…

> There are a handful of contexts where it makes more sense, like for a HR person potentially

In academia, faculty functionally ARE HR people - with significant power

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#396

Post by WalterBright »

rayiner wrote: post #290
dctoedt wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a non-white immigrant, I’m deeply suspicious of the notion that a team with me on it is in any way different than a team without me on it based on my skin color or ethnicity. I think that line of thinking doesn’t go anywhere good, especially for me, but for everyone else too. In various threads you've repeatedly argued (paraphrasing here) that you have a different set of values — e.g., giving higher priority to…

You’ve accurately described the differences, but none of those things are relevant to the workplace. All the ways I’m actually different from Americans are just a source of consternation where I have to bite my tongue and remind myself that it’s their country and I have to put up with the dog in the office, etc. As to “cheap to observe” information: you might observe that Asian and Mormon communities socialize people…

> I have to put up with the dog in the office

A company I worked for long ago decided that it was ok for employees to bring their dogs to work. This worked for a time until one of the dogs pooped in the executive's office.

That was the end of that.

My dad lived in a small town for a few years. He was friendly with the mayor, and asked him what was his biggest problem. The mayor said the town was equally divided between dog lovers and dog haters. It was simply impossible for him to please both.

Which was a relief for me.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#397

Post by keepamovin »

eapressoandcats wrote: post #311
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #287

I never understood the american obsession with race (well, and sexuality). I live in a small EU country on the edge of the balkans... what the hell should I write if I wanted to get hired? I'm white... everyone here is white... but just by living here, I might have a more "diverse" worldview (compared to a white american is massachussets, with enouh knowledge and money to attend MIT) than someone of a different race…

The American obsession with race is deeply rooted in historically having a large, enslaved underclass that was kept down using racial justifications and against which there is still measurable bias across all areas of life (hiring, police stops, criminal sentencing, etc.) It’s not unique to America but it is a major differentiator from other countries. A key thing to note is that many homogeneous countries are extrem…

> The American obsession with race is deeply rooted in … [history of slavery]

I think that’s part of it. But Europeans invented (or at least widely commercialized ) this instance of slavery, and they aren’t fretting about it. I think America’s fiery vivisection of its own morality Probably comes more out of Its role as “world saving hero police” in WWII.

The ‘suddenly thrust upon them heroism’ caused them, in the subsequent decades, to then intensively examine all the ways they were, perhaps, not living up to it.

And also, I think there’s a more fundamental thing that by being in a role of “world police” you necessarily have to use violence, but whenever you use violence, there’s always inevitably guilt and shame attached to that somewhere in the psyche, or the collective subconscious.

So… while much of the violence may have been done under the idea of righteousness, I don’t think the American people can easily escape the guilt that comes with that and I think that’s one of the reasons they kind of have such Tumultuous self reflection, about how good they really are or not.

Pretty complex national psyche.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#398

Post by fsckboy »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #273
neltnerb wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is what I am also thinking of. It makes sense for people in a position to create a culture or hire a team to know, it's a science you probably weren't exposed to in school and knowing the real effects that are known and studied is a darn good start to implementing DEI well. Doing it based on guesswork is probably worse than useless. So that's the non-ideological part. If you actually care enough to study i…

> it's a science you probably weren't exposed to in school Interesting take, why do you think it is you likely weren’t expose to DEI in school? While I’m thinking about it, didn’t we just used to call it “affirmative action”?

>didn’t we just used to call it “affirmative action”?

no. in short, affirmative action represented an attempt at "equality of opportunity" in the belief that some extra pushes would remediate "the problem"

"equity" refers to forcing particular outcomes, using various measure that operate as "quotas" including the lowering of standards like entrance exam scores.

Affirmative action did not result in enough doctors meeting various criteria, so we must need to force the results we want by whatever means necessary; since we believe all people are equal, anything short of that must be the result of a pernicious mechanism

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#399

Post by dang »

davidgerard wrote: post #249

This looks very badly sourced.

I agree. I'm assuming that https://unherd.com/newsroom/mit-becomes-first-elite-universi... is true because otherwise they'd be fabricating quotes and that seems unlikely, although the site does have an ideological slant.

It's a little surprising that more publications haven't reported on it yet though.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#400

Post by rayiner »

tptacek wrote: post #345
rayiner wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve accurately described the differences, but none of those things are relevant to the workplace. All the ways I’m actually different from Americans are just a source of consternation where I have to bite my tongue and remind myself that it’s their country and I have to put up with the dog in the office, etc. As to “cheap to observe” information: you might observe that Asian and Mormon communities socialize people…

It's "their" country? It's yours too. Be the dog-free workplace you want to see in the world.

I don’t subscribe to that view of nationhood. It’s a constant source of discomfort (not just at the office, but visiting people’s houses or visiting my in laws) but it’s not my place to impose on the people whose ancestors built this country. I feel bad enough that I won’t let my wife have a dog, but I have to draw the line somewhere.
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