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So You Want to be a Programmer

codinghorror.com

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Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#71

Post by adeelk »

mattmorgan wrote: post #32

Intelligence/coding go hand in hand. No matter how smart their arguments are, some coders in this "debate" unintentionally display the subtle insecurity that their special skill is coming to the masses and that fact will ultimately decrease their uniqueness, salary, and apparently...their self esteem. If one does feel that twinge of jealousy or defensiveness, then perhaps the most progressive solution internally is t…

> Intelligence/coding go hand in hand.

Are you joking? There are tons of very intelligent people who know nothing about coding.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#72

Post by adeelk »

guscost wrote: post #50

The fact remains that literacy with computer syntax is what literacy with arithmetic was a hundred years ago. There are so many ways to take advantage of it today, it is insane not to encourage just about anyone to stick with it long enough to see what possibilities might be revealed.

What is “computer syntax”?!

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#73

Post by icebraining »

slantyyz wrote: post #29
astine wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking" You don't need to be a programmer to think logically. There are a lot of other fields that teach that. Basic algorithmic knowledge is useful in daily life, but you won't necessarily gain that while "learning to code," and it's not necessarily more useful than anything else you might study. "how many other judges in technology patent cases will be…

>> You don't need to be a programmer to think logically. That's true. On the other hand, knowing the basics of coding makes it easier to do more even as an end user. Like writing a simple macro in Excel to do something it can't otherwise do. I see coding as a useful life skill. I know how to do simple things like change a light switch, fix simple leaks, change a tire, hem a pair of pants, make a cheesecake, etc. but…

But did you learn those life skills upfront because you thought "it's important to know how to make a cheesecake", or did you learn as you needed them? Because Atwood doesn't seen anything "wrong" with learning to code; he does view learning it upfront as premature optimization:

    Here's a person who a) found an interesting problem, b) attempted to create
    a solution to the problem, which naturally c) led them to learning to code. (...)
    This is how it's supposed to work.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#74

Post by [deleted] »

Zakharov wrote: post #48

The way I see it, subjects taught in school are ranked according to their perceived importance: 1 - Math, english 2 - Science, PE 3 - LOTE, history, geography, music, etc 4 - IT, drama, shop, economics, etc 5 - Plumbing, mechanics, technical drawing, etc Joel is, I think, arguing against people that say coding should be a tier 1 or 2 subject.

[deleted]

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#75

Post by marcoi »

I don't know why this needs to be controversial. To keep it simple: Logic/algorithmic thinking skills -> good for most people, should be acquired at school, programming is one quite good way to acquire them (IFF done right) Actual coding skills -> pretty much only useful if you plan to work in software; depending on your role, essential (sw dev, but that takes more than codecademy...); desirable (product/marketing: you will better understand the tech team, how to prioritise, what's possible etc.); "nice to have" (everyone else).

So, I guess these coding schools are good, either if you want to learn a new way of thinking (and have lots of spare time and patience), or if you are a non-tech product person (as long as you realise that you're only scratching the surface, and that if you're short on time, maybe you should focus on getting things done).

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#76

Post by shadesandcolour »

ecounysis wrote: post #27
shadesandcolour wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You interpretation of his analogy is what he wants I think. If learning how to change your oil is like learning to install that new wifi dongle, then you should know how to do that. You certainly don't need code to do that. Similarly you don't need to be a mechanic to change oil.

You don't need to be a mechanic to change oil, but a small amount of mechanical knowledge helps quite a bit. I am talking about knowledge such as what is a drain plug, what is oil, what is an oil filter. Most people have at least a rudimentary knowledge of how a car works. Computing is still magic to many people, and it should not be.

Trust me I wish that it wasn't magic to people either. I need lots of hands to count the number of times I've explained some pretty basic (in my eyes) things about computers. Computer literacy is very important, but people don't seem to see it that way.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#77

Post by mikecarlucci »

h84ru3a wrote: post #42
mikecarlucci wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what I am striving for. I don't want to program full-time, but I like to be able to understand enough and be able to muddle through somewhat if there's a project I feel like working on. Maybe I end up doing more than that, but it's nice to have, like learning a foreign language. Not everyone becomes fluent, but a lot of people know enough to get something out of their studies.

What sort of project? Are you the type of person who like to take things apart and put them back together? Do you like to figure out how things work?

I am.

I like restoring old computers, replacing capacitors etc. to get them running again, keeping my bike in order (though not my car), and messing around with HTML for simple things on a blog. I'm working on learning Ruby and slogging along iOS tutorials while designing my own board game.

I did take a few CS classes in college but was a liberal arts major. If I had known more, might have flipped it, but at the time thought programming would mean cooped up in a cube all day.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#79

Post by guscost »

adeelk wrote: post #72
guscost wrote: post #50

The fact remains that literacy with computer syntax is what literacy with arithmetic was a hundred years ago. There are so many ways to take advantage of it today, it is insane not to encourage just about anyone to stick with it long enough to see what possibilities might be revealed.

What is “computer syntax”?!

The syntax of C and derivative languages.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#80

Post by parasubvert »

Peaker wrote: post #65

Why does he mention the "No Silver Bullet" paper? Oh, how I hate that paper: it is pure speculation (Nobody has any idea what complexity is actually essential and what accidental), and it seems to ignore the fact that the past of programming sports a couple of silver bullets already. Saying the past had silver bullets but there are no silver bullets left to be found is like saying we've already invented all things, a…

Really? That's a seminal paper for a reason.

Firstly, it's pretty obvious to a skilled developer what aspects of that program's complexity are accidental vs. essential. Layers upon layers of indirection for no particular end is one example of accidental complexity. As is tuning assembler for a particular processor.

Understanding and constructing the appropriate usability and function of your software for your target audience on the other hand, is essentially hard - it's "product/market fit" for software.

What past silver bullets are you referring to? Brooks' point is that individual technical gains don't tackle the essential complexity at its core, whereas his "promising attacks" have mostly been validated: buy vs. build, requirements refinement & rapid prototyping, incremental development, and great designers. These advances have had way more impact than, say, the move from COBOL to Python.

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