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Flags Are Not Languages

flagsarenotlanguages.com

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Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#61
post #10

If asked to make icons for languages, whet else would you even use instead of flags? Icons help find things faster, and the users are used to seeing flags next to language labels. In some cases, a single flag indeed does not sufficiently describe an option. In this case, combine, like, two flags, e.g. (flag of Spain)(flag of Columbia), or invent some other clever icon to disambiguate selection.

> Icons help find things faster, [...] I _highly_ doubt that being able to input the name of the language (or country or whatever), both in its native and translated form, is slower than scrolling through all possible icons.

Typing the whole name takes longer and you don't always know exactly what to type, so you have to type a bit of the name, then look at the list. Flags help with the latter part.

Here's a funny example of where flags are useful:

People from Slovenia [SI] (natively "Slovenija") speak Slovene/Slovenian [sl], natively "Slovenščina", ajdective "slovensko".

People from Slovakia [SK] (natively "Slovensko") speak Slovak [sk], natively "Slovenčina", adjective "slovensky".

Opening up a language picker, I usually search for "slo" (if there even is a search bar!) and then read the options left. But since the difference can be as little as a single character, even without dyslexia and with good eyesight, I still screw it up sometimes. The flags however, even when small and/or blurry, can still be quite easily differentiated by anyone familiar with both.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#62

The website argues that using a flag for a language may confuse or even offend users. It argues English would most appropriately be represented by the flag of England, but few people know the flag of England, so English is usually represented by the flag of the UK or the US, neither of which are appropriate because other languages are spoken in the UK and English does not originate from the US. I would argue that usi…

I know a person from Ireland that doesn't take well to being associated with the "Butcher's apron" as he refers to the flag of Great Britain. Ireland has its own flag and they are very proud of it. And they'll object to any suggestion that they are English.

And of course England has its own flag, which is not the same as that of Great Britain. And of course quite a few countries still using English because they were formerly colonized/oppressed/etc. (take your pick) and might have a thing or two to say about having to deal with the British flag.

There are a lot more languages than countries. And language variations, dialects, etc. And a lot of flag / language combinations are confusing, insulting, historically incorrect, or not that helpful. Like the British, the French were all over the place and there are lots of places that speak French that don't use the French flag. Likewise Spanish is used all over the Americas. India has about 21 official languages (I think, might be more). One of which is English. So, it's complicated for English and it doesn't really get any better for other languages.

Telling people to grow a tougher skin isn't particularly user friendly or that helpful.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#63

The website argues that using a flag for a language may confuse or even offend users. It argues English would most appropriately be represented by the flag of England, but few people know the flag of England, so English is usually represented by the flag of the UK or the US, neither of which are appropriate because other languages are spoken in the UK and English does not originate from the US. I would argue that usi…

To give you an example of flags being offensive: most people who would ever choose Belarusian anywhere in any computer system will find the current Belarusian flag offensive because it represents the government that oppresses their culture and represses people who dare use the language in public. Another example: a lot of people speak Russian outside of Russia. Many of them have nothing to do with Russia and never li…

Thanks, these are indeed good arguments. This made me reconsider but I am still not entirely convinced. I would argue that the association of the flag with the current government rests largely in the mind of the reader, not in the convention itself.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we are talking about using flags of countries for languages, which is a totally different "kind of wrong".

I'm not sure it is. Symbols operate by analogy, all language does. The question isn't "where are you from", but "which country speaks a language that is similar to how you speak". If you're living in the UK and are given the choice between Denmark and Australia, the latter is the more similar.

And if you are a Russian-speaking Ukrainian who has to pick the Russian flag? Or an Irish person who has to pick the Union Flag? Not even the English flag, because nobody actually uses that for the English language, but the Union Flag!

This isn’t an abstract technicality, forcing people to use the wrong flag can trigger some very strong negative emotions if you get it wrong.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#65
post #7

Keyboard layouts are more country related than language related. At least among French speakers that's the case. So using country flags probably makes sense here.

There's multilingual countries with multiple local layouts. (Like Swiss German and Swiss French layouts for instance)

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it is. Symbols operate by analogy, all language does. The question isn't "where are you from", but "which country speaks a language that is similar to how you speak". If you're living in the UK and are given the choice between Denmark and Australia, the latter is the more similar.

And if you are a Russian-speaking Ukrainian who has to pick the Russian flag? Or an Irish person who has to pick the Union Flag? Not even the English flag, because nobody actually uses that for the English language, but the Union Flag! This isn’t an abstract technicality, forcing people to use the wrong flag can trigger some very strong negative emotions if you get it wrong.

The only time the Ukrainian would have to pick the Russian flag would surely be if they selected the Russian language, and not the Ukrainian language which is not the same as Russian and doesn't even use the same alphabet. The languages and alphabets are undeniably similar and somewhat mutually intelligible, but they are not the same.

Only time this is a problem is when the Ukrainian localization isn't even supported and the Ukrainians are forced to use Russian, but then isn't that the bigger problem?

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question isn't "where are you from", but "which country speaks a language that is similar to how you speak" Exactly. And that's the problem. There are countries where more than one language are officially spoken and differ (in the case of German enough that neither German nor Austrian German are usable, whereas German German is usable for Austrian German and vice versa) and these languages do not have their own…

This is only an issue if the flag is the only information provided. In the case of the Swiss languages, you could use the Swiss flag for all for all of them, or only for the languages that are unique to Switzerland. Words do not have to be unique in language. You can lead an army and you can lead water in a lead pipe.

> This is only an issue if the flag is the only information provided.

The next step is acknowledging that the flag doesn't contribute anything, but may cause confusion or negative associations with the flag's country. So what exactly is the point of using it at all?

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you are a Russian-speaking Ukrainian who has to pick the Russian flag? Or an Irish person who has to pick the Union Flag? Not even the English flag, because nobody actually uses that for the English language, but the Union Flag! This isn’t an abstract technicality, forcing people to use the wrong flag can trigger some very strong negative emotions if you get it wrong.

The only time the Ukrainian would have to pick the Russian flag would surely be if they selected the Russian language, and not the Ukrainian language which is not the same as Russian and doesn't even use the same alphabet. The languages and alphabets are undeniably similar and somewhat mutually intelligible, but they are not the same. Only time this is a problem is when the Ukrainian localization isn't even supported…

I know Ukrainian and Russian are different languages, that’s why I specified “a Russian-speaking Ukrainian”. Plenty of Ukrainians are native Russian speakers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ukraine

Speaking a language natively is not the same thing as nationality or allegiance to a flag, and it can be grossly offensive to confuse the two.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#69

The website argues that using a flag for a language may confuse or even offend users. It argues English would most appropriately be represented by the flag of England, but few people know the flag of England, so English is usually represented by the flag of the UK or the US, neither of which are appropriate because other languages are spoken in the UK and English does not originate from the US. I would argue that usi…

I know a person from Ireland that doesn't take well to being associated with the "Butcher's apron" as he refers to the flag of Great Britain. Ireland has its own flag and they are very proud of it. And they'll object to any suggestion that they are English. And of course England has its own flag, which is not the same as that of Great Britain. And of course quite a few countries still using English because they were…

> And of course quite a few countries still using English because they were formerly colonized/oppressed/etc. (take your pick) and might have a thing or two to say about having to deal with the British flag.

What about the fact that their language would be listed as "English", therefore reminding them it originated in England? Is listing the language as "English" significantly different from listing it as " English"? Should we rename the language to "Irish" ? Then what about the inhabitants of Ireland who don't identify as Irish?

You can always take the most offensive interpretation "This flag is claiming that Irish people are English, therefore contribute to historical oppression, etc".

But you can also take a more natural and charitable interpretation, which is that most people associate the UK flag to English, and the flag is therefore a convenient visual indication.

> it's complicated for English and it doesn't really get any better for other languages.

I agree, there is complexity and arbitrariness in any "language -> flag" mapping. I am arguing that you can make practical decisions even in the presence of complexity.

> Telling people to grow a tougher skin isn't particularly user friendly or that helpful.

Arguing you can't do something because someone will be offended is also not very helpful: you can almost always find some offensive interpretation of anything.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only an issue if the flag is the only information provided. In the case of the Swiss languages, you could use the Swiss flag for all for all of them, or only for the languages that are unique to Switzerland. Words do not have to be unique in language. You can lead an army and you can lead water in a lead pipe.

> This is only an issue if the flag is the only information provided. The next step is acknowledging that the flag doesn't contribute anything, but may cause confusion or negative associations with the flag's country. So what exactly is the point of using it at all?

It does contribute something though.

One very useful property of flags is that the flag is the same in any language, even if the names for the languages are not.

Having a colorful icon is also helpful if you have problems reading text. Means you don't have to read all the languages' names that are on screen, you can do a coarse visual match by colors and then confirm by only reading the one name.

Modern low contrast monochrome flat UIs are a nightmare for people with reading disabilities and low-grade sight impairment. Speaking from my own experience. A dab of color does so much to help parse a UI. It doesn't have to be the perfect representation or unambiguous. Just give me something to help navigate the UI that isn't just monochrome text possibly with monochrome line-art icons.

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