Flags Are Not Languages • Hacker News Board

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#11

Post by ReleaseCandidat » Sun, May 05, 2024, 9:54 AM UTC

peterhi wrote: post #4

But the flag was useful to show in the ui where the language setting was. This is especially useful when the language has been set to something I cannot read. I don't know which of 语言设定 and 重置设备 will allow me to set the language back to English. Also flags in the menu means that I can find English easier than 英语

> I don't know which of 语言设定 and 重置设备 will allow me to set the language back to English.

That's why the languages should be presented in their "own" native form (name and alphabet), at least additionally. Which - using the native form and the translation in the current active locale - Apple does, btw., so at least on MacOS your problem does not exist.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#12

Post by cabirum » Sun, May 05, 2024, 9:56 AM UTC

JimDabell wrote: post #9

James_K wrote: post #2

Counterpoint to this website: it is convenient to have symbols to represent things. I don't see them suggesting anything better than flags.

Having the wrong symbol for something is worse than the inconvenience of not having a symbol.

Wrong symbols are everywhere. Ever seen a save button with a floppy disk icon? Its not about pedantic accuracy -- if something works, do not touch it.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#13

Post by ReleaseCandidat » Sun, May 05, 2024, 9:56 AM UTC

quadhome wrote: post #8

peterhi wrote: post #4

But the flag was useful to show in the ui where the language setting was. This is especially useful when the language has been set to something I cannot read. I don't know which of 语言设定 and 重置设备 will allow me to set the language back to English. Also flags in the menu means that I can find English easier than 英语

Wikipedia uses a “文Ａ” icon; IMHO far better than a flag. What flag would you expect to see? As for finding the language in the menu, listening a language in the foreign language seems like bad design too. The menu should list “English” as an option! See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language#/languages

Both versions is the correct answer, like in the screenshot in the article.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#14

Post by HL33tibCe7 » Sun, May 05, 2024, 9:56 AM UTC

JimDabell wrote: post #9

James_K wrote: post #2

Counterpoint to this website: it is convenient to have symbols to represent things. I don't see them suggesting anything better than flags.

Having the wrong symbol for something is worse than the inconvenience of not having a symbol.

Not necessarily. It completely depends on the situation.

As another example: gendered bathrooms. The icons used on gendered bathrooms have a woman wearing a skirt, and a man wearing trousers. These icons are "wrong": a man can wear a skirt, and a woman can wear trousers (in fact, nowadays most women do). It's nonetheless certainly more useful to have a "wrong" icon than none at all in this case.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#15

Post by mik1998 » Sun, May 05, 2024, 9:57 AM UTC

quadhome wrote: post #8

peterhi wrote: post #4

But the flag was useful to show in the ui where the language setting was. This is especially useful when the language has been set to something I cannot read. I don't know which of 语言设定 and 重置设备 will allow me to set the language back to English. Also flags in the menu means that I can find English easier than 英语

Wikipedia uses a “文Ａ” icon; IMHO far better than a flag. What flag would you expect to see? As for finding the language in the menu, listening a language in the foreign language seems like bad design too. The menu should list “English” as an option! See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language#/languages

I personally had no idea that icon let you change the language of articles (a concept I explicitly looked for before). Still confused at what the icon is actually supposed to mean.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#16

Post by ReleaseCandidat » Sun, May 05, 2024, 9:57 AM UTC

cabirum wrote: post #12

JimDabell wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having the wrong symbol for something is worse than the inconvenience of not having a symbol.

Wrong symbols are everywhere . Ever seen a save button with a floppy disk icon? Its not about pedantic accuracy -- if something works, do not touch it.

But we are talking about using flags of countries for languages, which is a totally different "kind of wrong".

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#17

Post by notimetorelax » Sun, May 05, 2024, 9:57 AM UTC

JimDabell wrote: post #9

James_K wrote: post #2

Counterpoint to this website: it is convenient to have symbols to represent things. I don't see them suggesting anything better than flags.

Having the wrong symbol for something is worse than the inconvenience of not having a symbol.

I live in Switzerland and I’m very used to seeing 3 to five options with a Swiss flag: German, French, Italian, English, Romansh (rarely). I don’t see it as a wrong use of the flag.

One is the locale and the other is the language. The flag serves as a lookup index.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#18

Post by greenish_shores » Sun, May 05, 2024, 9:59 AM UTC

ReleaseCandidat wrote: post #11

peterhi wrote: post #4

But the flag was useful to show in the ui where the language setting was. This is especially useful when the language has been set to something I cannot read. I don't know which of 语言设定 and 重置设备 will allow me to set the language back to English. Also flags in the menu means that I can find English easier than 英语

> I don't know which of 语言设定 and 重置设备 will allow me to set the language back to English. That's why the languages should be presented in their "own" native form (name and alphabet), at least additionally. Which - using the native form and the translation in the current active locale - Apple does, btw., so at least on MacOS your problem does not exist.

The should be presented mainly, mostly and primarily in their native form. The form for currently set language should be additional. It's a no-brainer which makes demand for using flags unnecessary, almost making it absurd to use them.

But, wait. 语言设定 is "Language settings" and 重置设备 is "Reset device". So the problem here is a bit different, right?

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#19

Post by ReleaseCandidat » Sun, May 05, 2024, 9:59 AM UTC

cabirum wrote: post #10

If asked to make icons for languages, whet else would you even use instead of flags? Icons help find things faster, and the users are used to seeing flags next to language labels. In some cases, a single flag indeed does not sufficiently describe an option. In this case, combine, like, two flags, e.g. (flag of Spain)(flag of Columbia), or invent some other clever icon to disambiguate selection.

> Icons help find things faster, [...]

I _highly_ doubt that being able to input the name of the language (or country or whatever), both in its native and translated form, is slower than scrolling through all possible icons.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#20

Post by jumasheff » Sun, May 05, 2024, 10:00 AM UTC

dadoum wrote: post #7

Keyboard layouts are more country related than language related. At least among French speakers that's the case. So using country flags probably makes sense here.

Keyboard layouts might be linked to specific countries, but language usage extends far beyond national borders. For example, Russian is spoken by communities in the US who may not identify with the Russian flag (or even stand against it), and French is widely used in places like Niger, where the French flag may hold little relevance. Thus, associating languages strictly with country flags can overlook the diverse and global nature of language communities.