So You Want to be a Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#21

Post by SomeCallMeTim » Sat, May 26, 2012, 12:40 AM UTC

astine wrote: post #20

agentultra wrote: post #9

He's still missing the point. If anything "learning to code," is just bad language to describe something more worthwhile: teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking. We don't teach mathematics to kids so that they will all become mathematicians and we certainly don't teach them literacy so that they will all become the next J.D. Salinger. They are just tools for solving other problems. "Lear…

"teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking" You don't need to be a programmer to think logically. There are a lot of other fields that teach that. Basic algorithmic knowledge is useful in daily life, but you won't necessarily gain that while "learning to code," and it's not necessarily more useful than anything else you might study. "how many other judges in technology patent cases will be…

The judge who happened to know enough programming to dismiss Oracle's argument that a 9-line function should be worth millions certainly helped out. [1]

[1] http://www.slashgear.com/oracle-android-argument-flounders-t...

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#22

Post by leif » Sat, May 26, 2012, 12:47 AM UTC

I'm getting tired of people having opinions about what other people should learn. If you think you will like messing with computers, give it a shot. If you like it, maybe you'll work hard and get good. If not, you'll probably do something else. Just like any other profession. Everyone needs to relax and stop worrying about what other people are doing with their lives.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#23

Post by meej » Sat, May 26, 2012, 12:47 AM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #9

He's still missing the point. If anything "learning to code," is just bad language to describe something more worthwhile: teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking. We don't teach mathematics to kids so that they will all become mathematicians and we certainly don't teach them literacy so that they will all become the next J.D. Salinger. They are just tools for solving other problems. "Lear…

This whole conversation about learning to code puts me in mind of what CMU's Jeanette Wing calls "Computational Thinking", this comment especially.

Here is her article from CACM on the subject: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wing/publications/Wing06.pdf

(I think someone posted this in the comments of Atwood's original post, but I've yet to see it show up here at HN.)

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#24

Post by sray » Sat, May 26, 2012, 12:51 AM UTC

This ongoing "Learn to Code" discussion reminds me OWS. Ask ten different people what it stands for, and you'll get ten different answers. If you try and argue against any part of it, someone will tell you that you "just don't get it."

In the end, all I get out of it is the impression that we "hackers" sure think highly of ourselves.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#25

Post by gavanwoolery » Sat, May 26, 2012, 12:51 AM UTC

Egh.

Not to be overly critical, but...

I read the article that spawned this, and it was not very interesting...although at least he took a clear stance. This one feels like a watered-down ode to truisms. What did I just read?

I've taken the liberty of rewriting his essay below:

If you like coding, or dogs, press the like button. If you don't like dogs, but prefer cats, press the like button. If you enjoy life, or stuff in general, press the like button. Maybe learn to code if you like it, but if not thats ok you can still learn it if you want, or not.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#26

Post by mikecarlucci » Sat, May 26, 2012, 12:57 AM UTC

h84ru3a wrote: post #11

Learn enough about code to read others' programs. Learn enough to not be spied on and manipulated by sociopathic web developers and cybercriminals. Maybe you can contribute something back to programmer/user community that demonstrates ethical principles. Maybe you found a startup. Maybe you make a career out of writing programs. At the very least, you make it harder for the bad actors who use their coding skills to t…

This is exactly what I am striving for. I don't want to program full-time, but I like to be able to understand enough and be able to muddle through somewhat if there's a project I feel like working on.

Maybe I end up doing more than that, but it's nice to have, like learning a foreign language. Not everyone becomes fluent, but a lot of people know enough to get something out of their studies.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#27

Post by ecounysis » Sat, May 26, 2012, 12:57 AM UTC

shadesandcolour wrote: post #16

rmATinnovafy wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As some who used to work on cars for a living, I can say that the analogy does not fit very well. Learning how to check your oil level, or even how to change a tire is more akin to learning how to install a new wi-fi dongle for your laptop, or how to install a new OS. Learning how to program the computer is akin to learning how to modify the drivetrain of the car. You modify the engine to make it perform better (vers…

You interpretation of his analogy is what he wants I think. If learning how to change your oil is like learning to install that new wifi dongle, then you should know how to do that. You certainly don't need code to do that. Similarly you don't need to be a mechanic to change oil.

You don't need to be a mechanic to change oil, but a small amount of mechanical knowledge helps quite a bit. I am talking about knowledge such as what is a drain plug, what is oil, what is an oil filter. Most people have at least a rudimentary knowledge of how a car works. Computing is still magic to many people, and it should not be.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#28

Post by jhuni » Sat, May 26, 2012, 12:57 AM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #9

He's still missing the point. If anything "learning to code," is just bad language to describe something more worthwhile: teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking. We don't teach mathematics to kids so that they will all become mathematicians and we certainly don't teach them literacy so that they will all become the next J.D. Salinger. They are just tools for solving other problems. "Lear…

> He's still missing the point.

If you read him carefully I think you will find that isn't the case. Much of a professional programmer's time is spent mindlessly debugging crapware, in other words, code plumbing. Plumbing is a separate speciality for good reason. In depth plumbing courses such as those at toiletacademy should not be required of all students.

On the other hand, I certainly agree that everyone should be taught mathematical thinking. Nearly everybody in the first world is already taught elementary mathematics. That is certainly not something Jeff Atwood is opposing here.

> Their world is comprised of apps and silos.

Programmer's worlds are comprised of apps and silos just as much as everyone elses. Indeed, everyone who is a victim of the UNIX pestilence lives in a world of incompatible competing applications.

> They don't realise that their e-reader is a general purpose computing device capable of more than just downloading books from that one store they bought it from.

That is because most modern e-readers are deliberately designed to be that way. Their manufacturers intentionally implement C.R.A.P (content restriction & punishment) to prevent users from realising the full power of their devices.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#29

Post by slantyyz » Sat, May 26, 2012, 1:10 AM UTC

astine wrote: post #20

agentultra wrote: post #9

He's still missing the point. If anything "learning to code," is just bad language to describe something more worthwhile: teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking. We don't teach mathematics to kids so that they will all become mathematicians and we certainly don't teach them literacy so that they will all become the next J.D. Salinger. They are just tools for solving other problems. "Lear…

"teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking" You don't need to be a programmer to think logically. There are a lot of other fields that teach that. Basic algorithmic knowledge is useful in daily life, but you won't necessarily gain that while "learning to code," and it's not necessarily more useful than anything else you might study. "how many other judges in technology patent cases will be…

>> You don't need to be a programmer to think logically.

That's true.

On the other hand, knowing the basics of coding makes it easier to do more even as an end user. Like writing a simple macro in Excel to do something it can't otherwise do.

I see coding as a useful life skill. I know how to do simple things like change a light switch, fix simple leaks, change a tire, hem a pair of pants, make a cheesecake, etc. but I'm not an expert in any of those things, nor do I want to be. Having said that, I also know when a problem is beyond my skill and to let a professional handle it.

There's nothing wrong with coding being one of those skills.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#30

Post by ranit8 » Sat, May 26, 2012, 1:11 AM UTC

I didn't want to give more ammo to his elitist bullshit, but I wonder what happens if the same schools that make people hate math try teaching them to code.