Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

newatlas.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

361–370 of 396 posts

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#361

Post by jillesvangurp »

thelastgallon wrote: post #312
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #33

We’re undergoing a Cambrian explosion of battery chemistries at the moment. Other startups, such as From Energy is scaling up production of Iron Air batteries in West Virginia, which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion and will provide grid scale power [1]. North Harbour Clean Energy Promised to build a manufacturing facility in Australia to build Vanadium Flow batteries, which have very high charg…

> The advantage with Sodium Ion is that, although energy densities are lower than Lithium Ion, it could still be used to power mobile devices and electric vehicles. There is an insightful comment by AtlasBarfed: Keep in mind sodium ion and LFP are much safer and don't require nearly as much cooling and management systems as nickel-cobalt chemistries: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38363603 Read the whole commen…

It's a point that's easily overlooked. Battery density only matters in vehicles that need to be small or light (like a sports vehicle or a plane). In a truck, sacrificing a few tons for some batteries is not that big of a deal. What matters more is the price of those batteries. As those prices come down, demand will go up by a lot. That's happening right now. It's been happening for a few years now.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#362

Post by spurgu »

rockskon wrote: post #301
shkkmo wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also prioritize price, especially at the low end. If sodium batteries are significantly cheaper, it will be used to produce low cost devices.

What? Smart phones are famously high-margin devices. What do you mean "prioritize price"? Not for most smart phones.

Even though I could easily afford an iPhone or Pixel my daily driver is a $150 Android phone. Due to the low margins of the manufacturer it's actually a very usable device.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#363

Post by kube-system »

elihu wrote: post #353
kube-system wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but a primary advantage to private transportation is the ability to drive it in locations other than predefined routes in dense city centers.

I think the point they were making is that a suitable technology to deliver power to a moving vehicle has been around a long time, not that everyone should get rid of their cars and use trolleys. If we combine a modern EV with 100 year old tram technology, you get the ability for a car to charge itself when travelling on roads that have a compatible system of overhead power lines. Having a huge pantograph on top of t…

My point is that those solutions are impractical for any sort of widespread use.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#364

Post by mark-r »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #311
karmajunkie wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument against hybrids that's always resonated with me is that you get the maintenance costs of a gasoline engine with the upfront costs of a battery. I've owned a Leaf and found it relatively trouble-free but never a hybrid. Am I just buying into FUD there?

I've had a Volt since 2018 and there's basically been almost no "maintenance" on the ICE. Just an oil change every two years. Maybe I'm due for a coolant flush or something, I dunno. It has 120,000km on it. The most maintenance on this car ever has just been the breaks, because like most EVs, they're prone to corroding because they don't get used as much due to regeneration. The "ICE is a maintenance problem" thing i…

That's interesting, I always assumed the brakes would be MORE reliable because there's essentially no wear on the brake pads.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#365

Post by specialist »

pfdietz wrote: post #293
specialist wrote: post #21

Sodium-ion compliments Li-ion in the marketplace. Each battery variation is better suited for various niches. eg Sodium is a better fit for stationary storage. Though CATL and others are using sodium for down market vehicles too, which should free up Li-ion capacity for other use cases. To reach net-zero 2050, we'll need an installed base of 2 terawatts of battery storage. Annual production is ~30 gigawatts. (IIRC.)…

Global battery making capacity is now around 1 TWh/year.

Thanks. I'm confusing both myself and the conversation. I probably (mis)took the terawatt figure to be the cumulative installed amount. And some quick forraging didn't set me straight. (Any helpful links?)

Being just a simple bear, I want both a burn down chart for (human) GHG pollution and "burn up" chart depicting our progress towards our glorious renewable energy net-zero future. (Turrible names, I know, esp wrt climate crisis, but I don't know what else to call them.)

Add some milestones, if we want to get fancy.

As you can see, I struggle to make sense of the whole domain. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#366

Post by pfdietz »

specialist wrote: post #365
pfdietz wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Global battery making capacity is now around 1 TWh/year.

Thanks. I'm confusing both myself and the conversation. I probably (mis)took the terawatt figure to be the cumulative installed amount. And some quick forraging didn't set me straight. (Any helpful links?) Being just a simple bear, I want both a burn down chart for (human) GHG pollution and "burn up" chart depicting our progress towards our glorious renewable energy net-zero future. (Turrible names, I know, esp wrt c…

I actually understated it. Global battery manufacturing capacity last year was 2.6 TWh.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-04-12/china-...

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#367

Post by tombert »

WalterBright wrote: post #209
_yb2s wrote: post #67

I had an early EV with only 80 miles of range, and found it extremely useful for most in town travel and commuting. Now that EVs are pushing ~400 miles range at about 300Wh/kg, assuming sodium is about half that (from what I've seen), you'd still get a respectable 100-200 miles in a car. For me, and I imagine a lot of people, that would be totally acceptable if it means lower cost, and batteries that effectively last…

Why do people need 200 mile range for an EV? For example, my daily mileage averages about 5 miles. As an errand-runner, a 30 mile EV would be very practical. The huge benefit of this is a smaller and cheaper battery, and the biggie - much less weight. Much less weight leads to much less tire/brake wear and tire/brake dust pollution. I'd still have a second gas car for the trips.

> Why do people need 200 mile range for an EV?

> I'd still have a second gas car for the trips.

I feel like you answered your own question here. Having two cars is pretty expensive, if nothing else you have to pay for insurance for both.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#368

Post by quitit »

topspin wrote: post #222
quitit wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's unpack it then. You've stated: >"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. So let's break it down with some facts (all easily searchable.) (1) The graph states that Australia is the largest producer of Lithium, and states tha…

Good analysis, until you got here: > While this is a baseless comment, let's look at it anyway: It's not baseless. This is a golden boy startup, blessed with save the Earth kudos and highly subsidized. The DOE spun this outfit up in 2020 with $19M. Michigan and Whitmer have fast tracked the one, modest, token plant, delivered the tax breaks and signed the contracts for a sodium battery power facility in the state. VC…

1. Trends in mass production are moving -away- from China.

2. China was not deemed an adversary when it become the prima supplier of Li batteries.

3. The USA is perfectly capable at locking out competition the same way China did, why? Because national security.

The assumption that all new battery technology will end up being produced in China is naive, and baseless.

Also let's pay attention to the article, since it already outlines a number of reasons that I've merely highlighted.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#369

Post by barfingclouds »

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #3
downrightmike wrote: post #2

Lower capacity in the same form factor, but inputs are common and cheap as dirt and will be able to do the hard work of supporting grid scale battery storage. We've learned that there are many applications that do not need to capacity of lithium.

Even if it isn't as high-capacity, a longer-lasting and safer battery over a thinner smartphone isn't a _bad_ trade-off, specially considering chips and screens get more efficient. This might have more market than stationary batteries.

Well I think for as amazing as this technology is, we probably don’t need it in a cellphone.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#370

Post by barfingclouds »

I could see sodium ion being a good use case for cars even.

I just did a little perplexity search and it seems that lithium ion is maybe 50% more energy dense than sodium ion. So instead of a 300 mile car, I could get a 200 mile car that can charge 10 times faster, and has a longer lifespan battery. That’s a trade off that doesn’t sound bad to me

Post reply on HN