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As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

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Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#171

Post by dumpsterdiver »

carabiner wrote: post #155
minusLik wrote: post #67

What the article does not seem to mention is that an usual electric wheelchair costs about $65,000 (and is intended to be replaced every six years or so). This and the non-availability of replacement parts is why some wheelchair users started a project to open-source a wheelchair from standard parts: https://themif.org/ Louis Rossmann interviewed the founder of the project here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaAj59…

Should be "a usual" because "usual" starts with a consonant sound. Otherwise could sound like "unusual."

It would be better to simply use the adverb form "usually" and apply it to the word "cost", instead of using the adjective "usual" and applying it to "electric wheelchair".

"Electric wheelchairs usually cost a lot of money."

vs.

"A usual electric wheelchair costs a lot of money."

The second form begs the question, what is it that comprises a "usual" electric wheelchair? What would make an electric wheelchair seem "unusual"? A custom muffler? The statement creates more questions than it provides answers.

The first form however is simple and clear. What about these wheelchairs can be considered "usual"? The cost. They cost about the same. What would make a wheelchair expressed in this context unusual? The cost. It's either cheaper or more expensive. No additional unanswered questions have been created by expressing the statement in this form.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#172

Post by dukeyukey »

minusLik wrote: post #67

What the article does not seem to mention is that an usual electric wheelchair costs about $65,000 (and is intended to be replaced every six years or so). This and the non-availability of replacement parts is why some wheelchair users started a project to open-source a wheelchair from standard parts: https://themif.org/ Louis Rossmann interviewed the founder of the project here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaAj59…

How tf does an electric wheelchair cost that when a standard wheelchair is a few hundred and a solid e-bike is a couple grand?

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#173

Post by discardedrefuse »

api wrote: post #54
mhh__ wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That some people apparently can't see this strat with AI "safety" laws is genuinely bizarre.

Lots of people see it. It's very clear to me and many others that a lot of the AI safety push is about going straight for regulatory capture and effectively outlawing competition.

Yup. Sam Altman stood before congress and practically begged them for a regulatory moat. Straight up rent-seeking behavior.

I don't think people give Meta enough credit for their roll in that. Microsoft/OpenAI got cozy and thought they had a huge moat made of $100K hardware to protect their $10B investment. Then Meta shadow drops Llama and within weeks regular folks were running GPT3 level LLMs on consumer hardware. That was such a huge win for opensource and consumers.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#174

Post by whynotkeithberg »

heyoni wrote: post #151
somethoughts wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest - it actually seems like a risky Private Equity play as I bet the $65000 sticker price is due to the fact that Medicare is footing the bill. Medicare is likely what is requiring a regulation grade wheel chair, not the users themselves. I bet a huge segment of the user base could easily self purchase a mobility scooter and achieve the same quality of life if the price point was such that they could out of…

In my experience, the chairs and how they’re built aren’t what adds to the price tag; the fact that an insurance company is paying is what is. My daughter literally just got approved for a talking device that would otherwise cost us $4000. It’s a Samsung tablet with $300 software and an attached speaker and comes with some sort of repair agreement. I can buy and break 20 iPads for that price…and we did end up buying…

For most people on here, they're more likely to believe that the disabled people are needy & expecting way to much rather than the companies behind it including insurance being greedy as hell.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#175

Post by bcrosby95 »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #156
tmaly wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not just wheelchairs and nursing homes. My eye doctor office got bought out. They pay the doctors as little as possible and maximize the number of appointments per day.

How hard is it for them to leave and start their own business?

Not every doctor also wants to be a small business owner. Usually what happens is a doctor/dentist/vet started a practice, wants to retire, and sells it to PE.

At smaller places, sometimes the owner sells to PE and stays on - they just don't want to deal with the business side of things anymore.

Quitting your job to start your own thing is never an easy step.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#176

Post by rdtsc »

dukeyukey wrote: post #172
minusLik wrote: post #67

What the article does not seem to mention is that an usual electric wheelchair costs about $65,000 (and is intended to be replaced every six years or so). This and the non-availability of replacement parts is why some wheelchair users started a project to open-source a wheelchair from standard parts: https://themif.org/ Louis Rossmann interviewed the founder of the project here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaAj59…

How tf does an electric wheelchair cost that when a standard wheelchair is a few hundred and a solid e-bike is a couple grand?

Captured market. Some of the costs are paid by insurance, so it's seen as "not hurting consumers, since, hey! insurance pays for it anyway".

The article does mention this bit to sort of justify the cost:

> To get such a chair, a person needs a prescription, authorization from their insurance company, and a custom fitting from an assistive technology professional. Like a tailor crafting an exquisite suit, these technicians meticulously measure a client’s body to ensure the device’s specifications will match.

In many cases, yeah the wheelchair is specialized and has features that each individual needs. My friend with muscular dystrophy had one of those. But the drivetrain and the lead acid batteries seemed generic enough though possibly a higher quality, but it was definitely not something that should cost $65k.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#177

Post by newsclues »

heyoni wrote: post #151
somethoughts wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest - it actually seems like a risky Private Equity play as I bet the $65000 sticker price is due to the fact that Medicare is footing the bill. Medicare is likely what is requiring a regulation grade wheel chair, not the users themselves. I bet a huge segment of the user base could easily self purchase a mobility scooter and achieve the same quality of life if the price point was such that they could out of…

In my experience, the chairs and how they’re built aren’t what adds to the price tag; the fact that an insurance company is paying is what is. My daughter literally just got approved for a talking device that would otherwise cost us $4000. It’s a Samsung tablet with $300 software and an attached speaker and comes with some sort of repair agreement. I can buy and break 20 iPads for that price…and we did end up buying…

It’s similar to defence procurement.

If the customer is government with endless budget, inflate costs, and use regulatory capture to maintain the cash flow.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#178

Post by photonthug »

pdonis wrote: post #41
cyberax wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In free market it's also OK to cut costs as much as possible, making chair that explode and kill the user one day after the warranty expires. That's why we have regulation: to establish the minimum standards. Simple medical devices like wheelchairs (Class I or Class II) are also not super over-regulated, you don't need to do clinical trials to certify them. All-in-all it'll cost you around $10m, which is not at all a…

> In free market it's also OK to cut costs as much as possible, making chair that explode and kill the user one day after the warranty expires. No, it isn't, because nobody will buy chairs from a company that does that. In a free market, no company can use the get out of jail free card of "but I was following all the regulations". Businesses have to actually meet customer needs. And in a free market, customers can't…

> No, it isn't, because nobody will buy chairs from a company that does that. In a free market, no company can use the get out of jail free card of "but I was following all the regulations". Businesses have to actually meet customer needs.

Meeting customer needs is optional, what businesses might decide to do instead is change their name once a week on amazon/ebay, hire teams of robots to fake reviews, and then deceive customers into buying doll house furniture at full size prices.

It seems unlikely you are unaware of this type of behavior, so I guess you have an explanation for how an unregulated market in a modern context is supposed to deal with bad actors?

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#179

Post by JasserInicide »

deadeye wrote: post #60
alistairSH wrote: post #24

Almost as troubling, from the article "Customized wheelchairs typically last five years, but most chairs need a major repair or two during that time." What the actual fuck? Power wheelchairs run the spectrum for a few thousand USD to ten thousand plus. And they only last ~5 years, and even then with several major repairs in that period? That sounds like an absolutely atrocious durability/reliability record.

Think about it. For many users, they're in these chairs 12+ hours a day. They're not cars that get driven for an hour a two a day.

My fridge has been running 24/7 for 15 years and has never had an issue.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#180

Post by kazinator »

pdonis wrote: post #49
kazinator wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism refers to the system of individuals pooling money together (capital) to start a venture that they couldn't if they acted separately. The idea of a company being a person-like legal entity with its own assets and liabilities is capitalistic. In a free marked that is absent of regulatory hurdles, it is far from guaranteed that costs would be affordable. Freedom from regulation about how wheelchairs have to b…

> Capitalism refers to the system of individuals pooling money together (capital) to start a venture that they couldn't if they acted separately. That's one aspect of capitalism, yes. But in capitalism as it is currently practiced, most of the people who are accumulating capital aren't people that are trying to start new ventures. They are people that are already rich but think they aren't rich enough, who are unable…

> it will have no way of keeping other companies from producing at a lower cost.

It could get chummy with them and fix prices. It could buy them.

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