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Gene banks aren’t enough to save the world’s food

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Re: Gene banks aren’t enough to save the world’s food

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

even if they do get cross pollinated, if the seeds grow, who cares?

I'm not saying anyone should, but in the context of preserving particular strains and particular genetic diversity (which is what this article is about), if you are breeding willy nilly (which there is nothing wrong with, and can, as the other commenter mentioned, help you select for your very particular micro-conditions), you almost certainly aren't preserving whatever strain it is you started with.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems like promoting genetic diversity and maintaining the purity of specific strains are contradictory goals. Wouldn't you want a lot of cross-pollination to maximize overall genetic variation and generate lots of new varieties?

Re: Gene banks aren’t enough to save the world’s food

#112
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is likely not an answer. Small-scale sustenance farming is not enough to support humanity at scale. (Without ag-industry methods, we're about 4 billion people past the planets carrying capacity) Also, if that small farm is something you dream about, I strongly suggest actually working on a farm for a while. It is surprisingly not fun. I know "I'm gonna have a farm" is a popular escapist things for many folks in…

> Also, if that small farm is something you dream about, I strongly suggest actually working on a farm for a while. I've both done that, and I sit in an office chair 8 hours a day. Anyone who prefers the latter has a different set of maladaptive personality defects than I do. > This is likely not an answer. Small-scale sustenance farming is not enough to support humanity at scale. It's ok. No one really needs to thin…

> When fertility rates went sub-replacement, humanity became functionally extinct, at least in those regions.

That is... also a way to look at it.

1) Migration is a thing, so unless total fertility is sub-replacement, "functionally extinct" is a tad bit premature. Turns out that across the world, we're still above replacement rate.

2) Fertility rates do change over time. E.g. the fact of group size temporarily inducing stress-related infertility until a population is below a certain level is well-known and understood. Here's a great experiment on it: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11100725/

It's at least plausible that sub-replacement rates in humans are a similar self-regulation mechanism. I'd suggest that "functionally extinct" is maybe a bit of a premature judgment.

Re: Gene banks aren’t enough to save the world’s food

#113
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep and grow as much seed as possible. It is the only way to adapt plants to your local environment and farming methods and needs. I get plants that are much easier to grow, then breed for taste or other features. Thats how the heirlooms were created. If you are growing grains and harvesting by hand eat the seeds from shorter plants. Taller plants are easier to handle. And give more straw for animal bedding. Talle…

> I keep and grow as much seed as possible. It is the only way to adapt plants to your local environment and farming methods and needs. I get plants that are much easier to grow, then breed for taste or other features. Thats how the heirlooms were created. Do you actively select and breed the plants you grow, or does the selection happen "by itself" since only plants that are somehow adapted to local condition reach…

Both. I started doing this because my area was populated after industrial farming started. Local adaptation slowed drastically after it was possible to ship food such long distances. Prior to that every food grower kept seed and brought them to new environments. I came to realize that all my seed comes from at least 8 degrees closer to the equator than me that are generally warmer, have a longer summer and are certainly dryer.

Starting with a new plant I will buy a few varieties whose descriptions suit my fancy. Then plant as many seeds as I have space for. Adapting plants is a numbers game. Some won't germinate, some will grow slowly, some will become diseased and some will be eaten by pests. None of those are suited for the local environment. Thin the planting to allow the strongest growers room. It should be obvious which ones to keep. Once you have the plants that started from seed best its time to start selecting for other traits. Traits depend on the plant but for food you should be selecting mostly for taste at first. For example, I am crossing one pea variety selected for wirey strong vines and purple pods and a couple others for taste. This is my third year with those and I am getting sweeter pods on wirey vines but the vines aren't quite as strong or tall. So, I planted some of the original wirey vine seeds to try pushing the line that way more.

Some trait selection is unintentional. The plants are going to adapt to you as well. They will adapt to how you plant, harvest, and save the seed. With my grains some of the plants are too short to harvest with a sickle comfortably. Those go in the eat or feed to chickens pile. Some also don't separate from the plants when I thresh by hand. Also to the chickens. What I am left with are seeds that were easier to process just by not being super careful to get everything. With biennials or clonal root crops you will also unintentionally select for plants that store well as you have to keep the roots over winter to plant them in the spring.

I started saving seed about 5 years ago so nothing has really stabilized into something that could be considered a new variety. But, I have seen the steps closer to my goals.

Purchased seeds are a narrow part of that plants gene pool. If they are open pollinated they were bred until most of the produced seeds make the same looking and tasting plant in a specific environment. Really, if you are gardening, you should learn how to save seeds unless you have a seed grower near you. If you save seeds you will also have more seed than you know what to do with.

Re: Gene banks aren’t enough to save the world’s food

#114
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wowa, something I have experience with. I've harvested 25lbs of wheat berries from a boulevard in my city. I then threshed, winnowed it myself. I still have some of the flour and berries left and use it to make bread. I did my threshing using a lawn mower on a big tarp. This actually worked fairly well. Were I to do it again I would probably want a more repeatable setup. Ive seen some good strategies on youtube. The…

How did that boulevard end up planted with edible wheat?

It was erosion control after some new road work. I sorta suspect they did bring in new dirt for it as well. I do only use it in small amounts. Not really gonna make a difference over time in terms of pollution/heavy metals. But it was still a worthwhile project.

Re: Gene banks aren’t enough to save the world’s food

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep and grow as much seed as possible. It is the only way to adapt plants to your local environment and farming methods and needs. I get plants that are much easier to grow, then breed for taste or other features. Thats how the heirlooms were created. If you are growing grains and harvesting by hand eat the seeds from shorter plants. Taller plants are easier to handle. And give more straw for animal bedding. Talle…

Yes, I didn't mean to say it was impossible. Merely that the vast majority of home gardeners aren't doing it. If you have enough space to grow enough of something to keep a decent genetic pool going (which already excludes the vast majority of home gardeners), then it is certainly possible to either/or preserve a given strain or adapt a plant to your very specific micro conditions. Most home gardeners can much more e…

As long as we can still order seed new genes can be introduced, in a small plot, at any time. My goal is to easily grow good food. I really don't care how old the line is or what it is named. That just doesn't matter when growing for food. If you are buying seed for a specific variety that is already a narrowed gene line. If the saved seeds are producing for you it doesn't really matter how narrow the gene pool is. You actually want to narrow the gene pool that is what adapting is.

All you really need space for is allowing plants to reach full maturity. Some plants, like carrots or radishes, get huge if left to seed. One fruit from most plants will give you more seed than you likely planted. Each seed in a fruit is a unique individual that was fertilized by a different pollen. Even with self fertilization the seeds will not be genetically identical.

Re: Gene banks aren’t enough to save the world’s food

#116
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying anyone should, but in the context of preserving particular strains and particular genetic diversity (which is what this article is about), if you are breeding willy nilly (which there is nothing wrong with, and can, as the other commenter mentioned, help you select for your very particular micro-conditions), you almost certainly aren't preserving whatever strain it is you started with.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems like promoting genetic diversity and maintaining the purity of specific strains are contradictory goals. Wouldn't you want a lot of cross-pollination to maximize overall genetic variation and generate lots of new varieties?

There is the perfect situation and then there is the best realistic situation. The perfect situation for maintaining and expanding genetic diversity is probably going back to every region growing it's own particular strain of a given vegetable, with people in those regions mostly breeding and maintaining their own strains. In the really old days, pretty much everyone in a small region was growing the same variety (ish) and was saving their seeds and the combined gardens of the community (village, what have you) were more than large enough to be a self sustaining population, while also being the right combination of homogeneous (to maintain good traits), and large enough to have enough diversity to allow for new traits and hopefully even protect against disease or changing conditions.

But that's not really realistic anymore. If someone like the other poster, who has the space (both to maintain a large enough population as well as the distance from other gardeners who might be growing modern strains), the time, and the interest, they can indeed be doing the "best" thing from a genetic diversity perspective (as long as they make sure that their strain doesn't die with them). But those people are very, very rare. So the next-best option is to try and maintain the current genetic diversity we have, in a persistent way (as opposed to a static way in seed banks), by having breeders breed as many different varieties as possible. They will hopefully be following the dual mandate of maintaining unique traits while also allowing adaptation to changing conditions.

Your average gardener, even if they wanted to, can't maintain any real genetic diversity because A) they don't have the space for a viable population and B) their genetics will constantly be contaminated by their neighbor growing Early Girl or something. So making sure that the already extant genetic diversity doesn't dissapear by supporting heirloom breeding is not the "optimal" solution to genetic diversity, but it is, in my opinion, the best "realistic" solution.

Re: Gene banks aren’t enough to save the world’s food

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way the world is today, that's the result of earlier people who changed it. Almost everything we have, from religion to politics to technology to morality to language to culture, etc. etc., all comes from people who intentionally changed things. Compare us to our ancestors 10,000 years ago, nomads emerging from the Paleolithic with only stone tools, no writing, etc. Reactionary perspectives - the hot trend of the…

> Compare us to our ancestors 10,000 years ago, nomads emerging from the Paleolithic with only stone tools, no writing, etc. Aren't we still those people? Aren't stone tools, and tools made of wood, bone, and other plant & animal parts, enough? They don't require smelting (though I wouldn't be surprised if someone(s) 10,000 years ago got curious about the metal bits in their fire and traced it back to iron deposits i…

Other animals, and most of our ancestors, don't 'get by ok'. They live/lived short, painful, meaningless lives. Many/most die before reaching adulthood; they suffer disease, famine, war; they were illiterate and endured brutal physical labor, no freedom, a constant struggle to survive. Many people still suffer from most of those things.

We don't need every application of technology, but the rest is a fantasy.

Re: Gene banks aren’t enough to save the world’s food

#118
Corporations and supermarkets impose uniformity on what can be produced by farmers through patenting seeds and restricting purchases to those they consider acceptable to customers.

Instead of putting a significant proportion of the blame squarely where it belongs the author just beats about the bush.

https://regenerationinternational.org/2020/11/01/one-empire-...

Re: Gene banks aren’t enough to save the world’s food

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, if that small farm is something you dream about, I strongly suggest actually working on a farm for a while. I've both done that, and I sit in an office chair 8 hours a day. Anyone who prefers the latter has a different set of maladaptive personality defects than I do. > This is likely not an answer. Small-scale sustenance farming is not enough to support humanity at scale. It's ok. No one really needs to thin…

> When fertility rates went sub-replacement, humanity became functionally extinct, at least in those regions. That is... also a way to look at it. 1) Migration is a thing, so unless total fertility is sub-replacement, "functionally extinct" is a tad bit premature. Turns out that across the world, we're still above replacement rate. 2) Fertility rates do change over time. E.g. the fact of group size temporarily induci…

> That is... also a way to look at it.

Yeh, the mathematically correct way. There are only about 4-5 generations of humans on the planet at any given point in time. Only the youngest of those can create the next generation. If each generation is getting smaller than the previous because the fertility rate's low, why would you expect population to stabilize?

> Migration is a thing, so unless total fertility is sub-replacement,

Outsourcing your fertility to countries with rapidly declining fertility probably isn't a long term (or short term) fix for the problem.

> "functionally extinct" is a tad bit premature.

In less than 25 years, it will be global. Unless you believe that in a handful of African countries that it will stay above 5 forever, even though it was twice that less than 80 years ago.

> the fact of group size temporarily inducing stress-related infertility until a population is below

So, you believe that all the little girls who exist today, who grow up as only children, who have no aunts or cousins, who see their school teachers childless, all their role models childless... they'll grow up themselves and say "Wow, I want 9 children of my own!"?

I think you're confusing the models here. The moose don't have low fertility, it's as high as ever, but the wolves eat so many offspring, or the food sources so sparse they starve.

In the stress-induced models like Calhoun's mice, population never recovers. The mice become extinct. Even though there's plenty of food, plenty of water, plenty of entertainment. Even after the population crashes, and there's no overcrowding, even then their fertility rates are so low that they just go extinct.

I have no doubt that unless you're in your 60s, you'll one day come to understand that I was correct. This is coming, and nothing other than underwhelming horror at the thought of me being correct explains why you choose to argue about it. HN is filled with people who understand how to predict trends with lines on a chart, and you know or could quickly verify which way fertility numbers are trending. Which direction it is that they can only trend, at this point. "Functionally extinct" is indeed the perfectly correct term for this. It's what you call a species that still has living extant specimens, but for which there is no realistic way for the species to survive in the long term. That's humans.

Re: Gene banks aren’t enough to save the world’s food

#120

Home gardeners seem like a pretty good option here. For more regular vegetables, this is already a thing that exists with seed libraries and exchanges, and programs that preserve heirloom varietals and sell the seeds to gardeners. Buying these seeds is basically just a way to help pay for the continued cultivation by the breeder (unfortunately, unless you really know what you are doing and are quite careful, preservi…

I can't see it's possible to grow a useful amount of wheat for a single family without a decent sized plot and a large amount of labour. Most modern varieties rely on a lot of fertiliser as well. Wheat is more or less useless for the home gardener and has been for 200 years.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Homegrown_Whole_Grains....
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