Live data from Hacker News

As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

statnews.com

41–50 of 330 posts

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#41
post #32
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good illustration of the difference between capitalism and a free market. In a free market, "moats" like regulatory capture would not exist . In a market like this, where the customers--wheelchair users--are generally pretty savvy about what they need, a free market would have no trouble providing products that met customer needs at an affordable cost, because customers would have meaningful choices about w…

In free market it's also OK to cut costs as much as possible, making chair that explode and kill the user one day after the warranty expires. That's why we have regulation: to establish the minimum standards. Simple medical devices like wheelchairs (Class I or Class II) are also not super over-regulated, you don't need to do clinical trials to certify them. All-in-all it'll cost you around $10m, which is not at all a…

> In free market it's also OK to cut costs as much as possible, making chair that explode and kill the user one day after the warranty expires.

No, it isn't, because nobody will buy chairs from a company that does that. In a free market, no company can use the get out of jail free card of "but I was following all the regulations". Businesses have to actually meet customer needs.

And in a free market, customers can't delude themselves that Big Brother is looking out for them (even though Big Brother is not actually doing that); they know that they have to enforce quality if that's what they want. That means customers know that it's on them to be savvy enough to be able to evaluate the quality of products and services.

> That's why we have regulation: to establish the minimum standards.

That's what regulators claim, but all history shows that claim to be wrong. The end result of regulations is to reduce the quality and availability of products, not increase them. The wheelchair market described in the article is a classic example: it's regulated up one side and down the other, yet customers can't get simple things like proper footrests.

> Simple medical devices like wheelchairs (Class I or Class II) are also not super over-regulated, you don't need to do clinical trials to certify them.

Doesn't this contradict your claim that regulation is the only way to avoid exploding chairs? If you don't do clinical trials, how do you know the chairs won't explode one day after the warranty expires?

Of course the answer to this is that the regulators just, you know, look at the design of the chairs to evaluate them for certification. But customers could do the same thing for themselves, at less cost (what, you think those government regulators work for free?). So the regulations are actually adding zero value. But they're certainly not adding zero cost.

> All-in-all it'll cost you around $10m, which is not at all a moat.

So you'll be going into the wheelchair business then? Looks like there's plenty of opportunity to out-compete the current incumbents.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#42
post #36
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In free market it's also OK to cut costs as much as possible, making chair that explode and kill the user one day after the warranty expires. That's why we have regulation: to establish the minimum standards. Simple medical devices like wheelchairs (Class I or Class II) are also not super over-regulated, you don't need to do clinical trials to certify them. All-in-all it'll cost you around $10m, which is not at all a…

Liability still exists in a free market. Regulations are government's way of giving you immunity from liability laws, or not enacting them, in exchange for doing things a very specific ways. This creates moates.

> Liability still exists in a free market

Only if a wronged party has the resources (time, money, political capital) to pursue it.

Which is but one reason why it is deeply silly to rely on it to make a society go.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#43
post #10

Private equity discovered that regulations, compliance requirements, & other similar barriers to entry are the most effective 'moats' which allow businesses to raise prices and have little impact on demand; they are now exploiting this 'hack' ruthlessly.

They're huge in healthcare for this very reason.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#44
"In 2005, CMS announced requirements for testing of electric-powered wheelchairs as part of efforts to modernize coding (5–7). In this century, CMS, in what might be classified by some as an uncharacteristic move, has provided leadership in evidence-based classification of wheelchairs.

Globally, the International Standards Organization (ISO) manages the wheelchair standards. ISO and the RESNA standards committee work collaboratively. ISO and RESNA have often been driven by outside sources to expedite their work and to address needs of consumers and other organizations. In the 1990s, the European Community Medical Device Directive provided impetus to make a number of changes to ISO standards and to create new standards in response to stricter regulation. The European Committee for Standardization (CEN) went its own direction for a while and over time, CEN and ISO standards have begun to merge. American National Standards Institute (ANSI)/RESNA was a driving force for a long time and often had different standards than ISO. However, this has dwindled in the past decade. Concomitantly, the wheelchair industry has exploded over the past 10 years, and the standards have simply not kept pace. There is a clear and present need for change in standards development and support in the United States.

Most of the participants in wheelchair standards development are employed by the wheelchair industry, an inherent conflict. Unfortunately, wheelchair users and clinicians have traditionally not had the financial support to participate in sufficient numbers. Interestingly, the same companies that participate in the standards committees develop internal tests not represented by ISO or RESNA as part of their product development programs to protect them against legal liability. Test laboratories do the same thing, creating a number of tests that differ from or improve on ISO or RESNA standards. None of the existing standards (ISO, CEN, or RESNA) is comprehensive enough to cover all areas of wheelchair evaluation."

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1929010/ 2006

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power wheelchairs are regulated (FDA) as medical devices.

I can buy an electric wheelchair at Walmart for $750. What is the issue?

You can also buy pharmaceuticals at Walmart. What is your argument?

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#46
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've seen consolidation across the whole economy (which have vastly different regulation schemes) so I'm skeptical of it being just regulation driven

> I'm skeptical of it being just regulation driven It seems to be blatantly obviously regulation in this case. There are electric wheelchairs in other countries. What's stopping them from being imported are the regulations.

[deleted]

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#47
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good illustration of the difference between capitalism and a free market. In a free market, "moats" like regulatory capture would not exist . In a market like this, where the customers--wheelchair users--are generally pretty savvy about what they need, a free market would have no trouble providing products that met customer needs at an affordable cost, because customers would have meaningful choices about w…

Capitalism refers to the system of individuals pooling money together (capital) to start a venture that they couldn't if they acted separately. The idea of a company being a person-like legal entity with its own assets and liabilities is capitalistic. In a free marked that is absent of regulatory hurdles, it is far from guaranteed that costs would be affordable. Freedom from regulation about how wheelchairs have to b…

> idea of a company being a person-like legal entity with its own assets and liabilities is capitalistic

It independently evolved in Rome and India to provide legal personhood to cities, guilds, public works and later, in the former, the Catholic Church.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power wheelchairs are regulated (FDA) as medical devices.

I can buy an electric wheelchair at Walmart for $750. What is the issue?

That's a powered scooter, not an electric wheelchair. They may look the same to a layperson, but they're not - one is highly regulated and has a lot of people making a lot of money off them, the other is a scooter.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#49
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good illustration of the difference between capitalism and a free market. In a free market, "moats" like regulatory capture would not exist . In a market like this, where the customers--wheelchair users--are generally pretty savvy about what they need, a free market would have no trouble providing products that met customer needs at an affordable cost, because customers would have meaningful choices about w…

Capitalism refers to the system of individuals pooling money together (capital) to start a venture that they couldn't if they acted separately. The idea of a company being a person-like legal entity with its own assets and liabilities is capitalistic. In a free marked that is absent of regulatory hurdles, it is far from guaranteed that costs would be affordable. Freedom from regulation about how wheelchairs have to b…

> Capitalism refers to the system of individuals pooling money together (capital) to start a venture that they couldn't if they acted separately.

That's one aspect of capitalism, yes. But in capitalism as it is currently practiced, most of the people who are accumulating capital aren't people that are trying to start new ventures. They are people that are already rich but think they aren't rich enough, who are unable to start new ventures themselves because they have no actual skills at providing valuable products or services, so instead they find some existing venture and siphon off all its wealth. (This pattern is not new, btw; it's the same way the "robber barons" in the late 19th century operated.)

> In a free marked that is absent of regulatory hurdles, it is far from guaranteed that costs would be affordable.

Nothing is ever "guaranteed". But the article under discussion makes it obvious that with regulations in place, not only are costs not affordable, but even the very existence of products meeting customer needs is not happening. A free market couldn't possibly do any worse.

> In a completely free market, devoid of regulation, wheelchair makers can get together and fix prices. Or buy each other.

This would only happen if it were economically more efficient for wheelchairs to be made by a monopoly. I strongly doubt that is the case. It's not the case for the vast majority of products and services. If it's not economically efficient, the monopoly (or price-fixing cartel) will simply be out-competed in a free market, because it will have no way of keeping other companies from producing at a lower cost.

Historically, virtually all monopolies have been the result of government interference. (The original meaning of the word "monopoly" was a royal grant of the exclusive privilege to sell a particular product or service.) Most large corporations today are not the size they are because that is the most economically efficient way to deliver their products or services, but because it's the best way to buy government favors.

Re: As private equity dominates wheelchair market, users wait months for repairs

#50

[flagged]

I mean fair, but helping people like that teaches empathy which we're severely lacking in today's world. There is something special we humans experience when helping others for nothing and return and I think that a lot of people are blinded by never experiencing what it means to help others. A lot of arguments are "imagine if it was you", but I think a fairer argument would be "what if it was somebody you like/love"?…

I think you completely misread GP...
Post reply on HN