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Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

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Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#131

Post by thebruce87m »

w1nst0nsm1th wrote: post #124
_yb2s wrote: post #67

I had an early EV with only 80 miles of range, and found it extremely useful for most in town travel and commuting. Now that EVs are pushing ~400 miles range at about 300Wh/kg, assuming sodium is about half that (from what I've seen), you'd still get a respectable 100-200 miles in a car. For me, and I imagine a lot of people, that would be totally acceptable if it means lower cost, and batteries that effectively last…

The problem lies on electric grid capacity. If we're phasing out fossil fuel powered transportation, we will have to upgrade massivelly electricity productions well as in grid capacity.

> The highest peak electricity demand in the UK in recent years was 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency.

> Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle.

> In the US, the grid is equally capable of handling more EVs on the roads – by the time 80% of the US owns an EV, this will only translate into a 10-15% increase in electricity consumption.1

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/ele...

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#132

Post by supercheetah »

alemanek wrote: post #74
_yb2s wrote: post #67

I had an early EV with only 80 miles of range, and found it extremely useful for most in town travel and commuting. Now that EVs are pushing ~400 miles range at about 300Wh/kg, assuming sodium is about half that (from what I've seen), you'd still get a respectable 100-200 miles in a car. For me, and I imagine a lot of people, that would be totally acceptable if it means lower cost, and batteries that effectively last…

From the article it claims charge speed 10x that of lithium and 50,000 cycle lifetime. I don’t know about you but a EV that can go 150 miles and charge to 80% again in 2min would be super compelling to me. Solid commuter car but not too annoying on the rare roadtrip. But, I am guessing grid frequency regulation use cases are going to make these too expensive for a car for a long time.

Two minutes is about the amount of time it takes to fill my ICE car, so yeah, that'd be nice.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#133

Post by silisili »

alemanek wrote: post #74
_yb2s wrote: post #67

I had an early EV with only 80 miles of range, and found it extremely useful for most in town travel and commuting. Now that EVs are pushing ~400 miles range at about 300Wh/kg, assuming sodium is about half that (from what I've seen), you'd still get a respectable 100-200 miles in a car. For me, and I imagine a lot of people, that would be totally acceptable if it means lower cost, and batteries that effectively last…

From the article it claims charge speed 10x that of lithium and 50,000 cycle lifetime. I don’t know about you but a EV that can go 150 miles and charge to 80% again in 2min would be super compelling to me. Solid commuter car but not too annoying on the rare roadtrip. But, I am guessing grid frequency regulation use cases are going to make these too expensive for a car for a long time.

Compelling to me also, as a person who has shied away from EVs because of charging time annoyances. I'd gladly trade the mileage for charging speed every time. Getting excited for what's to come.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#135

Post by aembleton »

tryptophan wrote: post #94
stevetodd wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My hesitation with hybrids is that I keep all the associated maintenance costs of an ICE engine. Now I have two power trains and energy systems to maintain instead of just one.

Just buy a toyota hybrid and have 0 worries to 200k miles then.

One of the fuel injectors died at 190k miles in my Prius, so not quite 200k. At 210k now.

Only other thing is that it is consuming more oil now so needs topping up every few thousand miles.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#136

Post by throwitaway222 »

gabrielhidasy wrote: post #97
proee wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi Voltage transmission lines are completely necessary. Running on 48V would require ridiculously large cables over any significant distance. Is there a reason you want to "Dismantle" high voltage transmission lines? They are the greatest invention since sliced bread. edit: Sliced bread was invented in 1928, and the first high voltage transmission line was apparently tested in 1889. Therefore my statement needs revis…

I imagine the idea they were proposing is ~most energy being locally generated, 48v should be fine from solar panels to batteries. But I can't see that working on denser cities, or factories, or less sunny climates.

This is what I'm referring to.

Houses mostly, the reason we need such high voltage is because someone can turn on an oven and consume 5kw. But that oven only runs for 1 hour, or more averagely, 30 minutes. So in the context of 200kwh battery systems at EVERY house, and inverters at every house, that oven can easily run off the inverter, and the house would never need to pull down heavy wattage from the grid. In this scenario, the grid's variability goes down dramatically, thus, reducing the voltage requirements... Instead every house would have small solar and a trickle feed of, lets say 800w-1kw consistently during the day.

Additionally, for places that have a shit-ton of sun, can do much better with microgrids and generators.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#137

Post by can16358p »

> can be procured through a reliable US-based domestic supply chain free from geopolitical disruption. The same cannot be said for common lithium-ion materials like cobalt and nickel.

This is good... only for the US. The world doesn't need another industry where US solely is a monopoly.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#138

Post by elzbardico »

stevetodd wrote: post #82
jwagenet wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This falls in line with a plug in hybrid being an excellent alternative to evs for most people. 30-50 miles of driving around town for work an errands, with an ICE for the occasional longer trip. Almost all driving will be electric without the charge anxiety.

My hesitation with hybrids is that I keep all the associated maintenance costs of an ICE engine. Now I have two power trains and energy systems to maintain instead of just one.

Other than spark plugs, belts, oil changes and other such consumables I don't remember having to do any engine maintenance on my cars for the last 10 years. Of course, it helps that I am buyer of boring Toyotas and Hondas.

But all those costs are correlated with engine hours, in a hybrid used most of the time for commuting, ICE engine hours would be really low

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#139

Post by jseutter »

_yb2s wrote: post #81
alemanek wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article it claims charge speed 10x that of lithium and 50,000 cycle lifetime. I don’t know about you but a EV that can go 150 miles and charge to 80% again in 2min would be super compelling to me. Solid commuter car but not too annoying on the rare roadtrip. But, I am guessing grid frequency regulation use cases are going to make these too expensive for a car for a long time.

I missed the 10x charge speed- that is a killer feature that more than makes up for the reduced range.

Agreed, I just learned that the next formula for Formula E will eventually have charging stops. The spec will allow 5kwh of charge in 30 seconds, which is 10% SoC in their case. Pretty cool.
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