Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

newatlas.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 396 posts

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#111

Post by jacob019 »

alemanek wrote: post #100
UncleOxidant wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, I am guessing grid frequency regulation use cases are going to make these too expensive for a car for a long time. Not sure I follow here. Can you elaborate? Are you saying the the demand for sodium batteries for power grid backup is going to be high vs supply such that they're not going to make it into cars anytime soon? Isn't one of the Chinese EV makers starting to use sodium batteries?

Yeah I am thinking grid applications will take up most of the available supply for the next few years. That charge/discharge speed makes it perfect for helping to stabilize the grid, frequency regulation, as well as for replacing peaker plants. Lithium batteries are already being used for these two applications but I think these sodium batteries would be better.

Depends on the production economics, how fast they scale, and what issues are discovered in real world use. There is some risk for everyone with new tech.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#113

Post by kragen »

idontwantthis wrote: post #35
toomuchtodo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that: > Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles. So you take up more space, but the storage system is better in every other way (agility, conflict min…

> Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles. From everything I've read about existing Lithuum battery storage, this is already their strongpoint. Is it helpful t…

yes, enormously helpful, if true (no figures are given, and they may be comparing to low-power lithium-ion batteries instead of high-power ones). an equally valid way to say '10 times faster discharge rate' is '10 times higher power for the same capacity' or '10 times higher power density'

there are available li-ion batteries with a charge and discharge rate of '15c', which is to say, 1 hour ÷ 15 = 4 minutes. they are used in drones. (there are some advertised as '30c' but i suspect those are maybe just a fraud? like the notorious amazon million-lumen flashlights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceA5xL6ggEw) if they really reach '150c', you could discharge 10% of the battery in 2.4 seconds, which is closer to a firework rocket engine than a conventional battery. but, a rocket engine that you can recharge 50000 times

a charge rate of '150c' would mean you could charge the battery halfway in 12 seconds, and there are a lot of scenarios where that would be useful

you could imagine '150c' batteries displacing much larger supercapacitors from many uses, rather than displacing conventional batteries. the number given in the article of 70 watt hours per kilogram is, in si units, 250kJ/kg. if you divide that by the 24 seconds implied by '10 times faster than lithium-ion' you get a power density of 10.4 kilowatts per kilogram. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_density says supercaps are in the 15 kilowatts per kilogram range. quadcopter drone electric motors are typically in the neighborhood of 4–5 kilowatts per kilogram, so this would make the drone battery much smaller than the motor instead of bigger

more likely, though, it's a press release lie, where they're saying something that's technically true (there are lithium batteries with a '1c' charge and discharge rate, which have higher energy density than the higher-powered ones, and their batteries reach '10c', i.e., 6 minutes) but creates a false impression of something that would be a huge breakthrough if it were true

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#114

Post by jdewerd »

quitit wrote: post #105
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #33

We’re undergoing a Cambrian explosion of battery chemistries at the moment. Other startups, such as From Energy is scaling up production of Iron Air batteries in West Virginia, which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion and will provide grid scale power [1]. North Harbour Clean Energy Promised to build a manufacturing facility in Australia to build Vanadium Flow batteries, which have very high charg…

This is truly one of those "it begins" moments. The article touches on it - but the news goes well beyond the battery. Li ion batteries come with significant geopolitical baggage beyond simple cost. The situation is well summarised by the graph on this page. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/01/chart-countries-produ...

"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries.

Yes, I know that China does most of the refining/assembly, but that has little to do with the chemistry. "Building new Na-ion capacity outside China" is probably even harder than "building new li-ion capacity outside China."

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#115

Post by [deleted] »

quitit wrote: post #105
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #33

We’re undergoing a Cambrian explosion of battery chemistries at the moment. Other startups, such as From Energy is scaling up production of Iron Air batteries in West Virginia, which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion and will provide grid scale power [1]. North Harbour Clean Energy Promised to build a manufacturing facility in Australia to build Vanadium Flow batteries, which have very high charg…

This is truly one of those "it begins" moments. The article touches on it - but the news goes well beyond the battery. Li ion batteries come with significant geopolitical baggage beyond simple cost. The situation is well summarised by the graph on this page. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/01/chart-countries-produ...

[deleted]

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#116

Post by GrantMoyer »

alberth wrote: post #48
toomuchtodo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that: > Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles. So you take up more space, but the storage system is better in every other way (agility, conflict min…

It’s also significantly heavier by weight.

Do you mean heavier per energy capacity, or am I misinterpreting "heavier by weight"?

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#117

Post by pixl97 »

stevetodd wrote: post #82
jwagenet wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This falls in line with a plug in hybrid being an excellent alternative to evs for most people. 30-50 miles of driving around town for work an errands, with an ICE for the occasional longer trip. Almost all driving will be electric without the charge anxiety.

My hesitation with hybrids is that I keep all the associated maintenance costs of an ICE engine. Now I have two power trains and energy systems to maintain instead of just one.

I'd avoid any car with two powertrains, but there are systems that have an all electric powertrain with the ICE being used as a generator instead. It is a simplified system that, if designed correctly, can allow all battery or all generator to move the vehicle.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#118

Post by pixl97 »

holoduke wrote: post #102
stevetodd wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My hesitation with hybrids is that I keep all the associated maintenance costs of an ICE engine. Now I have two power trains and energy systems to maintain instead of just one.

But how often do you have issues with the engine. My last 3 cars never had a single engine issues for at least 175.000 miles. Its very rare today to have big engine issues.

It's the powertrain that's far more apt to be the problem. Hence a plugin hybrid generator style should be far simpler than a system with both an ICE and electric powertrain.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#119

Post by _yb2s »

holoduke wrote: post #102
stevetodd wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My hesitation with hybrids is that I keep all the associated maintenance costs of an ICE engine. Now I have two power trains and energy systems to maintain instead of just one.

But how often do you have issues with the engine. My last 3 cars never had a single engine issues for at least 175.000 miles. Its very rare today to have big engine issues.

Clearly you're not buying quirky over-engineered German cars loaded with exotic but mostly useless luxury features. They are well built and last forever, but typically require very frequent tinkering to keep them working.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#120

Post by chabons »

gpm wrote: post #101
xaellison wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what that will mean for charging infrastructure that suddenly has to deliver 10x power to enable that. Not sure that sort of charging could be as ubiquitously placed as gas stations

Just have the same batteries in the charging station to smooth out power usage? Seems a lot cheaper and operationally less complex than a gas station.

This assumes that the same number of vehicles use the charging station. Lower charge times means potentially higher steady-state throughput.
Post reply on HN