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Cardio fitness is a strong, consistent predictor of morbidity and mortality

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Re: Cardio fitness is a strong, consistent predictor of morbidity and mortality

#471

Post by bluecalm »

bpizzi wrote: post #353
keybored wrote: post #266

Some of my peers are deep into running. I don’t get it. Running is sometimes fun for me but most often painful. Then I overheard one of them (the fittest) say to a budding runner that he [should] do mostly easy sessions. Okay what’s easy to him? He said that so slow that it can feel awkward and unnatural. What? Then I searched around and found out about Zone 2 and how you should do most of your work in that zone when…

There's also value in spending some time in zone 5 [1]: this is where the heart is really trained as a muscle, and where the cardiovascular system is pushed to its limit (the famous vo2max: increasing vo2max is done in zone 5, for ex. with HIIT [2]). Zone 2 is all about giving the mitochondries a chance to get better at providing a steady energy flow over a long time, mainly by optimizing for burning fat as fuel inst…

A lot of pop-celebrity-educator types like Attia or Stephen Seiler say that. Then you look at how the professionals train and you see pyramidal distribution almost universally. Something like 85% below first lactate threshold, 12% in "sweet spot" and 3% in "zone 5".

I've spent a lot of time reading a lot about opinions and then looking at logs of professional athletes [1] (in cycling as I am most interested in that). My conclusion is that training comes down to:

1)do a lot of volume, the more the better

2)do some "hard stuff" - if those are hard intervals, longer "sweet spot" intervals or a a mix of those (like 5 minutes at threshold and then 15 seconds sprint, repeat n times) matters little

3)at pro level do some training specific to what you are going to do a lot in racing

1)is by far the most important and the most reliable predictor of overall fitness

[1] https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/pro-elite-training/14046 - is a nice thread with a lot of rides from whole weeks or months of training posted with power/heart rate data for various World Tour riders

[2]https://www.youtube.com/@sportscientist - Stephen Seiler's youtube channel; he has done work on analyzing how pro athletes train but his conclusions are very simplified and it seems made to sell "polarized" training idea. When you look at the details in the data no one trains like that, the final distribution is almost always pyramidal, not polarized

Re: Cardio fitness is a strong, consistent predictor of morbidity and mortality

#472

Post by curiousgibbon »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #393
zknill wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things: 1. You want to land on the mid-foot. Heel-striking puts a lot of pressure up you leg and joints as you are basically braking with every step. Forefoot strike puts a lot of pressure on your calf and achilles as you have to 'bounce' on every foot-strike to support your body weight. A mid-foot strike is the most efficient transition of energy into and back out of the ground for forward motion. Small steps he…

I’ve never understood what a mid-foot strike is. My foot has an arch. My heel touches the ground, ball of foot and toes touch the ground. Mid-foot doesn’t.

I've never understood striking guidance either. It seems that over long enough distances everyone is a heel striker too, it's just more efficient. So I'd assume that any advice you hear is more pace-dependent than it appears.

Re: Cardio fitness is a strong, consistent predictor of morbidity and mortality

#473

Post by AlecSchueler »

jajko wrote: post #463
AlecSchueler wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes this is annoying in all these same debates which point to Netherland / Denmark - the infrastructure elsewhere is just not there That's why we point to them. The infrastructure didn't exist in Holland either, until they choose to build it.

Yes but there was room for it, you noticed the wide streets? Most European city centers don't have that extra room for 1 dedicated bike path on each side, at least not cities I've lived in. That's cca 4m each side requirement, you would have to tear down whole rows of 150-500 year old buildings which are often protected. Even Amsterdam has streets which have 0 room, but generally city center is blocked/too expensive…

> Yes but there was room for it, you noticed the wide streets? Most European city centers don't have that extra room for 1 dedicated bike path on each side

Many Dutch cities don't either, that's why they disallow cars entirely. Really only Rotterdam has spacious roads thanks to the bombings. Ann I understanding you correctly?

> And something tells me it requires certain type of population where respect to others is way above average, that's not granted.

I'm not sure where you are the casuality here. In my experience it's the more human centred infrastructure design that encourages a higher level of social engagement and respect for others.

But regardless I would find it tragic to condem certain cultures as being inherently incapable of these things.

> If it would be a easy problem to solve, it would be done or at least almost done at this point.

It wasn't begun that long ago in the Netherlands. The vast majority of infrastructure has been built since the turn of the century. It takes a while for other places to really realise that their current models aren't working, and even longer for them to really learn the lessons of the Dutch.

But if you look at cities like London, Leipzig, Barcelona, Paris or further afield to Montreal for example then many cities are actually beginning to successfully integrate Dutch design practices.

Re: Cardio fitness is a strong, consistent predictor of morbidity and mortality

#474

Post by ultrarunner »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #393
zknill wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things: 1. You want to land on the mid-foot. Heel-striking puts a lot of pressure up you leg and joints as you are basically braking with every step. Forefoot strike puts a lot of pressure on your calf and achilles as you have to 'bounce' on every foot-strike to support your body weight. A mid-foot strike is the most efficient transition of energy into and back out of the ground for forward motion. Small steps he…

I’ve never understood what a mid-foot strike is. My foot has an arch. My heel touches the ground, ball of foot and toes touch the ground. Mid-foot doesn’t.

Just behind the ball of your foot so as to load your arch in a downward motion. Your heel will almost definitely touch the ground. This, as opposed to a forefoot strike, where you're landing just behind your toes and loading in a rearward motion (think sprinting). Your heel probably will not touch the ground.

Both of these are hard to do in typical "running shoes" which build a significant amount of rubber into the heel, while also being fairly thin up front.

Re: Cardio fitness is a strong, consistent predictor of morbidity and mortality

#475

Post by ekanes »

rubbertoe wrote: post #459
K0nserv wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely went on this journey with my running. At first I would run very short distances at very high pace(zone 4/5), but I fell out of it. I picked up running again last year and ended up more in zone 3/4, but for the last six months I've been aiming for zone 2 in most of my runs. I've had some knee pain recently so I've not been running much, focusing instead on knee strengthening exercise. On my last run I dis…

Same here with the knee pain after running. Any particular knee strengthening exercises recommendations? There is so much out there these days.

The youtuber "knees over toes guy" seems to be largely acknowledged by The Internet as having a novel, free and effective way to strengthen and injury-proof your knees. Worked very well for me.

Re: Cardio fitness is a strong, consistent predictor of morbidity and mortality

#476

Post by Aperocky »

K0nserv wrote: post #389
danielbln wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been streak running (so running at least a mile per day with no exceptions, mostly 5ks during the week, 10-20k on weekends) for almost 8 years (2817 days). The single best tip I give to everyone is "slow down! run slow!" Of course, almost no-one adheres to it unless they are already well practiced. It's just deeply ingrained in peoples heads that "only if it's hard or painful it must work". Then people check out…

I definitely went on this journey with my running. At first I would run very short distances at very high pace(zone 4/5), but I fell out of it. I picked up running again last year and ended up more in zone 3/4, but for the last six months I've been aiming for zone 2 in most of my runs. I've had some knee pain recently so I've not been running much, focusing instead on knee strengthening exercise. On my last run I dis…

Try cycling, it uses completely different set of leg muscles and its my goto when my knees start hurting.

The two sports also complements each other very well since the muscle groups support each other and cardiovascular side of things are the same.

Re: Cardio fitness is a strong, consistent predictor of morbidity and mortality

#477

Post by adam_arthur »

keybored wrote: post #266

Some of my peers are deep into running. I don’t get it. Running is sometimes fun for me but most often painful. Then I overheard one of them (the fittest) say to a budding runner that he [should] do mostly easy sessions. Okay what’s easy to him? He said that so slow that it can feel awkward and unnatural. What? Then I searched around and found out about Zone 2 and how you should do most of your work in that zone when…

No need to run even, you can stay in Zone 2 via walking. Incline on a treadmill makes required speeds quite low (2-3mph for most people).

I prefer it since it's at a pace where you can easily use your phone/browse the web at the same time.

Walking is also far more practical given that you walk 99% of the time in modern society. Might as well train for the thing you actually functionally do

Re: Cardio fitness is a strong, consistent predictor of morbidity and mortality

#478

Post by ultrarunner »

SwiftyBug wrote: post #436
TomK32 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6min/km is an average pace, so I do wonder why you still hate it? Have you looked into your cadence? Are you steps too long or the shoes too hard? Or do you have to run through post-apocalyptic ruins?

I'm not sure. It's not that I feel a huge discomfort or that anything hurts. It's just kind of pointless I think. I love martial arts and parkour, though. Maybe because the exercise is not the thing itself, but a byproduct of the activity?

It's very much not pointless. It can be difficult, initially, to reason about and iterate on activities that don't confer immediate feedback. These types of activities build effects over long periods of time, but everything we know says they're good for us. For example, it's hard to regret being overly winded during occasional martial arts or parkour when you're not.

Re: Cardio fitness is a strong, consistent predictor of morbidity and mortality

#479

Post by salad-tycoon »

K0nserv wrote: post #389
danielbln wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been streak running (so running at least a mile per day with no exceptions, mostly 5ks during the week, 10-20k on weekends) for almost 8 years (2817 days). The single best tip I give to everyone is "slow down! run slow!" Of course, almost no-one adheres to it unless they are already well practiced. It's just deeply ingrained in peoples heads that "only if it's hard or painful it must work". Then people check out…

I definitely went on this journey with my running. At first I would run very short distances at very high pace(zone 4/5), but I fell out of it. I picked up running again last year and ended up more in zone 3/4, but for the last six months I've been aiming for zone 2 in most of my runs. I've had some knee pain recently so I've not been running much, focusing instead on knee strengthening exercise. On my last run I dis…

Rucking. Get a back pack with a chest and waist strap, put in weights (increase over time) or buy a cheap weight lifting belt (Velcro fine) and attach a rope and something that drags (I use an old wheel).

Low impact, good for core strength. Zone 2 approved.

If you are wealthy they make specific back packs or I bought a tacti-cool one on Temu for cheap.

Outlive by Peter Attia is pretty good for more ideas on how to lengthen the mobile portion of your life.

Re: Cardio fitness is a strong, consistent predictor of morbidity and mortality

#480

Post by Fire-Dragon-DoL »

fransje26 wrote: post #366
keybored wrote: post #266

Some of my peers are deep into running. I don’t get it. Running is sometimes fun for me but most often painful. Then I overheard one of them (the fittest) say to a budding runner that he [should] do mostly easy sessions. Okay what’s easy to him? He said that so slow that it can feel awkward and unnatural. What? Then I searched around and found out about Zone 2 and how you should do most of your work in that zone when…

> Then it hit me. I’ve probably been jogging a lot in Zone 3. Or higher? Because the harder you go the more benefit, right? That's unfortunately not fully how it works. For maximum benefits, you would want to train your aerobic energy system, and to do that without risking injury, zone 2 is the recommended zone. The claim is that pain is gain, but more often than not, pain is your body telling you you are over the li…

Well, training zone 4-5 will speed up recovery so much that it's way easier to maintain zone 2 afterwards though
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