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Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

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Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#41

Post by jasonkester »

chc wrote: post #40
jasonkester wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is your heart breaking? The new version still supports c++, right? Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean you can't pay a little money for things. I have lots of hobbies that are way more expensive than computer programming. One surfboard costs more than you'll pay for a full VS.NET license. Over the 4 years this next version will keep you going, I'll go through thousands of dollars worth of rock shoes. A gamer w…

They would probably be willing to pay a little money. $600 is not a little money for normal people. Pointing out that it's not a lot of money for rich people seems a little beside the point. I don't think anybody's all that worried about the wealthy.

I never said anything about rich/poor people. In fact, the hobbies I mention are all "poor people" hobbies that I and lots of my friends indulged in back in our Also, take a quick glance upwards and notice that it's $400 for VS.NET + Everything Microsoft Makes. So if you would have otherwise spend $189 to have Office bundled in with your computer, you can think of the IDE costing ~$200.

Or four video games (as in, one per year). If programming is something you value doing, that's not a lot. Poor or otherwise.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#44

Post by fauigerzigerk »

jasonkester wrote: post #27

This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET. With BizSpark or similar, you're looking at something like $400 total to get as many copies of VS.NET as you need for your entire team. And all the other dev tools everybody needs. And Windows licenses for all their boxes. And Office. And everything else Microsoft makes. So…

What would be news is if Microsoft is moving from growing their platform to milking it for cash. I think you can see some of that in many of their decisions.

But there's another, more plausible, explanation for this particular move. They want people to create Metro apps and making it cheaper to do that creates an incentive.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#45

Post by fauigerzigerk »

cageface wrote: post #38
gurkendoktor wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the evolution of the web is absolutely essential for the survival of free & open computing. I don't understand the connection. How many of the web services we use are open source? A native program I buy may be closed source, but it runs on my computer and storage and is updated on my terms. I can even legally crack it if that's what it takes to keep it running (as far as I understand German laws). If I use an open-…

If I use an open-source OS and an open-source web browser to access a standards-based HTML5 web service, what interesting freedom do I have? You have the freedom to use a site built by anyone, anywhere in the world, for any purpose, using any tools or process they like. If you limit yourself to these new appstores you can't run anything that wasn't approved by the gatekeeper. And if you think Microsoft or Apple abuse…

In my view, locked down desktops and web apps are just two different ways of taking away freedoms.

The difference is that web apps give you something in return. They allow you to run software without having to buy and support all the required hardware.

A desktop restricted to running apps from an App Store takes away freedoms without providing anything of any additional value for competent users.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#46

Post by cageface »

perlgeek wrote: post #28
cageface wrote: post #2

Although I think HTML5 is actually a pretty lousy software stack for application development, I'm becoming more and more sympathetic to the arguments that the evolution of the web is absolutely essential for the survival of free & open computing. It was bad enough that their mobile platforms are so locked down, but with Apple and Microsoft now turning the screws ever tighter on their previously open desktop platforms…

"the web" is just a platform. For some applications it makes sense, for other not so much. I spend maybe 8 to 12 hours a day in front of some very classic laptops or desktop PCs, and I'm happy with low-latency desktop programs. I don't anticipate this to change. Maybe the industry sells more mobile devices these days, and that makes it easy to for people to go "all mobile" or "all html5", but a good amount of being a…

But both Apple and Microsoft appear to be making moves to lock down the desktop too. In many cases I prefer native apps too but I don't like Apple or MS telling me what I can and can't install on my computer.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#47

Post by cageface »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #45
cageface wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I use an open-source OS and an open-source web browser to access a standards-based HTML5 web service, what interesting freedom do I have? You have the freedom to use a site built by anyone, anywhere in the world, for any purpose, using any tools or process they like. If you limit yourself to these new appstores you can't run anything that wasn't approved by the gatekeeper. And if you think Microsoft or Apple abuse…

In my view, locked down desktops and web apps are just two different ways of taking away freedoms. The difference is that web apps give you something in return. They allow you to run software without having to buy and support all the required hardware. A desktop restricted to running apps from an App Store takes away freedoms without providing anything of any additional value for competent users.

I think the really critical difference is that Apple and Microsoft can't tell me what "apps" I may or may not run on the web but they do demand this privilege on their mobile devices and seem to be making moves towards insisting on it on the desktop too.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#48

Post by rvkennedy »

It's long past time since Visual Studio was the only game in town. Back when it was between VS6 and Borland C++ Builder, I was initially attracted by Builder's drag-and-drop UI construction - it seemed very odd at the time that "Visual" studio didn't offer that functionality. But Borland's descent into bug-ridden stagnation and my discovery of wxWidgets pushed me into the VC++ world for upwards of a decade.

But now with Eclipse reaching maturity (it's the main IDE at the banking multinational where I recently worked), I'm finding less and less justification to stick with Visual Studio when my MSDN subscription expires. Another very promising tool is Qt Creator: http://qt.nokia.com/products/developer-tools

This has less of the UI quirkiness of Eclipse, and the built-in documentation is great. Qt is now using Clang for code validation, but can be set to use Gcc or the Microsoft compiler. So given that I'm using Qt anyway for cross-platform UI, this may be the way forward.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#49

Post by cfn »

apike wrote: post #32
zmmmmm wrote: post #31

Just another step towards a closed, locked down world where every app is vetted, approved and ultimately constrained to not compete with the business interests of the two largest tech companies in the world. I know, people will say, this hardly makes a difference, right? But all the steps hardly make a difference. OSX Mountain Lion defaulting to only allow apps signed with a certificate from Apple? Why, the user can…

I think most would agree that this trend is there - the debate is how much it matters, how long it will last, and what, if anything, we should do about it. One point however: in Mountain Lion, the default is to allow any signed app to be run. One alternative setting is to only allow App Store apps. The other, likely more popular, alternative setting is to allow any app.

I do think it matters a lot. If the Windows and Mac platforms are only accessible through App Stores then we, developers, will have to pay whatever royalty or percentage those companies see fit to charge. We may also lose the ability to publish software at all to those platforms if they so decide without much notice and maybe even without recourse.

Although we could pass the expense of the App Store or absorb the cost, I guess most software companies would go bankrupt if Microsoft or Apple cancelled their accounts.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#50

Post by bad_user »

jasonkester wrote: post #27

This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET. With BizSpark or similar, you're looking at something like $400 total to get as many copies of VS.NET as you need for your entire team. And all the other dev tools everybody needs. And Windows licenses for all their boxes. And Office. And everything else Microsoft makes. So…

     still closer to free than it is to a day's
     worth of your bill rate
That's a really fucked up definition of "free", which gets repeated often by Windows developers, but it isn't anything more than a delusion. And btw, remember that not all of us live on Silicon Valley's fat salaries ;-)
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