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Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

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Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#31

Post by zmmmmm »

Just another step towards a closed, locked down world where every app is vetted, approved and ultimately constrained to not compete with the business interests of the two largest tech companies in the world.

I know, people will say, this hardly makes a difference, right? But all the steps hardly make a difference. OSX Mountain Lion defaulting to only allow apps signed with a certificate from Apple? Why, the user can just disable that ... not including Flash or Java? Sure, just install them! It all hardly makes a difference. But all these steps put together - they make a difference!

Slowly and surely we're being led like lambs to the slaughter to a world where everything we say or do with our technology will be under the control of giant tech companies that ultimately care only about their own profit. This is just one more little step to ensure that developers preferentially make apps for Microsoft's walled garden rather than free apps that run anywhere and might compete with their interests.

Edit: correction about Mac App store vs signed apps

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#32

Post by apike »

zmmmmm wrote: post #31

Just another step towards a closed, locked down world where every app is vetted, approved and ultimately constrained to not compete with the business interests of the two largest tech companies in the world. I know, people will say, this hardly makes a difference, right? But all the steps hardly make a difference. OSX Mountain Lion defaulting to only allow apps signed with a certificate from Apple? Why, the user can…

I think most would agree that this trend is there - the debate is how much it matters, how long it will last, and what, if anything, we should do about it.

One point however: in Mountain Lion, the default is to allow any signed app to be run. One alternative setting is to only allow App Store apps. The other, likely more popular, alternative setting is to allow any app.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#33

Post by gurkendoktor »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #20
altrego99 wrote: post #17

+ Freelancer devs will be 'encouraged' to develop for Win 8, an argument can be made this will positively impact Win 8 sells, albeit it will be a difficult argument - Open source development on Windows will take a hit - Freelancers will either stick with older and less effective tools, or will choose to abandon Desktop - Users will tend to get less new software for their Windows 7 +/- Will not affect big corporations…

Freelancer devs will spend the money on the full version of the tools instead of just using the free version. You have to be a pretty small potatoes freelancer to not be able to afford visual studio in some incarnation. See also: graphic artists and photoshop.

I am a freelancer and I will stick to VC++ Express 2010. It means that everyone who ever touches the codebase for whatever reason can just download stuff and hit compile. Ordering something as cheap as US$500 can still be a hassle in a big company.

Also, I only got into MSVC because of open-source/hobbyist dev in the first place.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#34

Post by zmmmmm »

apike wrote: post #32
zmmmmm wrote: post #31

Just another step towards a closed, locked down world where every app is vetted, approved and ultimately constrained to not compete with the business interests of the two largest tech companies in the world. I know, people will say, this hardly makes a difference, right? But all the steps hardly make a difference. OSX Mountain Lion defaulting to only allow apps signed with a certificate from Apple? Why, the user can…

I think most would agree that this trend is there - the debate is how much it matters, how long it will last, and what, if anything, we should do about it. One point however: in Mountain Lion, the default is to allow any signed app to be run. One alternative setting is to only allow App Store apps. The other, likely more popular, alternative setting is to allow any app.

Thanks - updated my post to reflect this.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#35

Post by gurkendoktor »

jasonkester wrote: post #27

This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET. With BizSpark or similar, you're looking at something like $400 total to get as many copies of VS.NET as you need for your entire team. And all the other dev tools everybody needs. And Windows licenses for all their boxes. And Office. And everything else Microsoft makes. So…

> This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET.

For C/C++ hobbyists and Open Source developers, MSVC used to be the compiler of choice on Windows. The Ruby community has embraced mingw more and more, and I think everyone else will (and should) do the same. Breaks my heart because MSVC has good C++11 support.

I don't think any professional will care about this. In fact, it's probably good news for them (us). Any barrier to entry means slightly less competition.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#36

Post by jasonkester »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #35
jasonkester wrote: post #27

This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET. With BizSpark or similar, you're looking at something like $400 total to get as many copies of VS.NET as you need for your entire team. And all the other dev tools everybody needs. And Windows licenses for all their boxes. And Office. And everything else Microsoft makes. So…

> This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET. For C/C++ hobbyists and Open Source developers, MSVC used to be the compiler of choice on Windows. The Ruby community has embraced mingw more and more, and I think everyone else will (and should) do the same. Breaks my heart because MSVC has good C++11 support. I don't thi…

Why is your heart breaking? The new version still supports c++, right?

Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean you can't pay a little money for things. I have lots of hobbies that are way more expensive than computer programming.

One surfboard costs more than you'll pay for a full VS.NET license. Over the 4 years this next version will keep you going, I'll go through thousands of dollars worth of rock shoes. A gamer will go through thousands of dollars worth of games. A mountain biker will replace his $1500 bike in that timeframe, and a snowboarder will rack up thousands of dollars in lift tickets and baggy trousers.

All these things have in common that: A. They're enjoyable, and: B. They cost money. Programming computers is no different. If you want to do it, and there's a good new tool out that costs money, why would you not buy it?

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#37

Post by chj »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #7
chj wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. However, we can go to back the open platforms, like Android.

Honest question: how open is Android? I mean, when you consider Play. Can you write/submit an end-user programming app like Scratch? I know we can always dev-unlock the device and install anything we want, but what about the kid with an Android tablet who wants to start hacking? I'm worried about this move to walled gardens on all the platforms. The desktop is one of the last bastions of openness, but its not really…

at least you can write an app and install it on your device without JB. That is already a huge advantage over iOS. Android is changing rapidly and we don't know what the future will be, however, we all know where iOS/MacOSX/windows will be heading. For me, it is no brainer -- i have to jump off their boats ASAP.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#38

Post by cageface »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #30
cageface wrote: post #2

Although I think HTML5 is actually a pretty lousy software stack for application development, I'm becoming more and more sympathetic to the arguments that the evolution of the web is absolutely essential for the survival of free & open computing. It was bad enough that their mobile platforms are so locked down, but with Apple and Microsoft now turning the screws ever tighter on their previously open desktop platforms…

> the evolution of the web is absolutely essential for the survival of free & open computing. I don't understand the connection. How many of the web services we use are open source? A native program I buy may be closed source, but it runs on my computer and storage and is updated on my terms. I can even legally crack it if that's what it takes to keep it running (as far as I understand German laws). If I use an open-…

If I use an open-source OS and an open-source web browser to access a standards-based HTML5 web service, what interesting freedom do I have?

You have the freedom to use a site built by anyone, anywhere in the world, for any purpose, using any tools or process they like. If you limit yourself to these new appstores you can't run anything that wasn't approved by the gatekeeper.

And if you think Microsoft or Apple abuse their authority now just wait until they have nothing to fear.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#39

Post by coffeeaddicted »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #20
altrego99 wrote: post #17

+ Freelancer devs will be 'encouraged' to develop for Win 8, an argument can be made this will positively impact Win 8 sells, albeit it will be a difficult argument - Open source development on Windows will take a hit - Freelancers will either stick with older and less effective tools, or will choose to abandon Desktop - Users will tend to get less new software for their Windows 7 +/- Will not affect big corporations…

Freelancer devs will spend the money on the full version of the tools instead of just using the free version. You have to be a pretty small potatoes freelancer to not be able to afford visual studio in some incarnation. See also: graphic artists and photoshop.

It's not always about beeing able to afford something or not. I don't _want_ to support a business model that makes it harder for beginners. So yeah, when I have no choice due to project reasons I'll be forced to buy one obviously, but I don't like it and I will try even harder to get away from working on projects where I'm forced to do this in the future.

Re: Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

#40

Post by chc »

jasonkester wrote: post #36
gurkendoktor wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET. For C/C++ hobbyists and Open Source developers, MSVC used to be the compiler of choice on Windows. The Ruby community has embraced mingw more and more, and I think everyone else will (and should) do the same. Breaks my heart because MSVC has good C++11 support. I don't thi…

Why is your heart breaking? The new version still supports c++, right? Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean you can't pay a little money for things. I have lots of hobbies that are way more expensive than computer programming. One surfboard costs more than you'll pay for a full VS.NET license. Over the 4 years this next version will keep you going, I'll go through thousands of dollars worth of rock shoes. A gamer w…

They would probably be willing to pay a little money. $600 is not a little money for normal people. Pointing out that it's not a lot of money for rich people seems a little beside the point. I don't think anybody's all that worried about the wealthy.
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