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Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

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Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#461

Post by imiric »

quectophoton wrote: post #363
ezoe wrote: post #121

I wonder what other existing programs Will Systemd attempt to replace in the future. My bet is /bin/sh, maybe they went further to replace the entire POSIX utilities.

filesystemd, replacing ext4/btrfs/etc. It will come with `filectl` for all your file operations, so you will no longer need `cd`, `pwd`, `touch`, `rm`, `mkdir`, `cat`, `grep`, `find`, etc. Instead you do everything through `filectl` commands. This will deprecate many commands from GNU coreutils, which is a good thing because replacing things is always good. Then, since programs are just files, and filesystem will be…

> The only thing you need to remember is that, instead of `cargo build` you'll need to use `filectl exec -u cargo build`

No, you forgot about `buildctl` which compiles any language into systemd bytecode, that runs on the systemd VM. At long last, write once, run anywhere!

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#462

Post by bmicraft »

lupusreal wrote: post #408
mbivert wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood the need for sudo(1) on single-user, physical machines: I keep a root shell (su(1)) around for admin tasks, and it's always been sufficient.

One password is easier than two and it feels weird to use the same password for both accounts. About half of my sudo invocations are 'sudo su' lmao.

You could probably save a process with `sudo -i`

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#463

Post by aeonik »

superb_dev wrote: post #297
rangerelf wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what would be the equivalent to, "Oh, I don´t know the name of the log for this process I can see in 'ps aux', let me cd into /var/log and see what filenames I can find ... or grep everything until I can find a couple of words that make some sense so I can keep digging further"? The lack of explorability in journalctl, the "need" to keep everything locked behind their own flavor of tools and magic file types, is…

Well `-u` refers to the unit file, so I would start with `sudo systemctl status` which lists the status of active unit files. I bet I could find the unit name I'm looking for there. If not, then `sudo systemctl list-units` should have it. (and you can grep the output of both) Systemd and Journald are less opaque than I used to think. Even if you don't want to learn the commands, all of its unit files (and the relatio…

How would you exclude certain units from your logs? Let's say that Auditd is spamming your logs, and you just want to exclude those?

Can you filter on search? How do you prevent applications from writing to Systemd at all?

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#464

Post by twic »

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #388
mbreese wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> across unix multiuser environments getting used anymore for servers I guess it depends on the servers. I'm in academic/research computing and single-user systems are the anomaly. Part of it is having access to beefier systems for smaller slices of time, but most of it is being able to share data and collaboration between users. If you're only used to cloud VMs that are setup for a single user or service, I guess yo…

> If you're only used to cloud VMs that are setup for a single user or service, I guess your views would be different. This is overwhelmingly the view for business and personal users. Settings like what you described are very rare nowadays. No corporate IT department is timesharing users on a mainframe. It's just baremetal laptops or VMs on Windows with networked mountpoints.

I wonder if they might be more common than you think. You will never see someone standing up at a conference and describing this setup, but there are millions of machines out there quietly doing work which are run by people who do not speak at conferences.

Where i work, we have a lot of physical machines. The IT staff own the root account, and development teams get some sort of normal user accounts, with highly restricted sudo.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#465

Post by Xeamek »

suprjami wrote: post #375
Xeamek wrote: post #356

2 weeks ago I didn't understood the systemd hate. But I tried to run udev-requiring program on non-systemd based distro. And now I don't like systemd anymore.

So, you don't like a component because you ran software which requires that component, and you intentionally ran it in an environment without that component. That does not make sense to me?

No.

I don't like a framework that promotes using components that are arbitrary dependent on it.

To use udev, I need systemd-init, and to use systemd-init I need systemd boot.

I really don't believe it MUST be this way, and those requirements aren't at least partially arbitral.

Why systemd refuses to run in chroot?

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#466

Post by Xeamek »

bhaney wrote: post #385
Xeamek wrote: post #356

2 weeks ago I didn't understood the systemd hate. But I tried to run udev-requiring program on non-systemd based distro. And now I don't like systemd anymore.

You must absolutely despise libc

The difference is that I can solve libc dependency at comp time (statically linked against it), while systemd dependencies require runtime support.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#468

Post by roenxi »

riddley wrote: post #395
esoterae wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it hasn't. You forget, the reason systemd was originally rationalized for its insertion into our trees was "boot times are too slow". Its chameleon-like nature and ability to solve the hastily described problem du jour seems to be its only consistently touted feature. Bash scripts that start processes are ephemeral. If it's signal handling you want, that was your program's problem. Either that or your program did…

Same thing is happening with Wayland. It reduces features adds complexity and solves no new problems but here it comes.

Wayland was a mis-fire in terms of user friendliness for the first decade or so. But it is still a big step up from the mess that was a typical xserver back in 2010.

> It reduces features adds complexity...

The irony here is Wayland is part of a huge effort to decomplex an xserver into component parts. A really commendable initiative; the path forward while maintaining the X protocol probably was impractically hairy.

The Wayland protocol design had some glaring flaws, but saying that it adds complexity is unfair. It oversimplified; it would have benefited from some flexibility in providing a standard mechanism to let people inspect the buffers graphics buffers to be composited.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#469

Post by Xeamek »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #411
vpzom wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The popularity of systemd encourages people to require it, which is the major problem that said iirc udev was formerly separate and active forks still exist

> The popularity of systemd encourages people to require it, which is the major problem The usefulness of systemd encourages people to require it. Projects most often require it in cases where either there isn't an alternative, the alternative isn't maintained, or the alternative is missing functionality.

Self perpetuating growth. Systemd integrates many functions so people default using it and add even more functionality that bring even more people into ecosystem.

Which is basically how every tech ecosystem works.

The problem is that linux is supposed to not be just_another_centrally_controlled_ecosystem, so when systemd abuses their popularity by enforcing whole ecosystem (rather then cut itself into separate pieces), that is worrying

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#470

Post by flaptrap »

yoyohello13 wrote: post #441
shrimp_emoji wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: GNOME and the modern GTK framework (I needn't say more.)

Gnome is great if you're willing to do things their way. I Like Gnome a lot actually.

Gnome's UI peaked at 2.32. Find out how the users operate and implement so users can work efficiently. Don't make changes just to make your mark or to make users work on the desktop like they see on a cell phone. That is so basic.
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