Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The IMEI Code: Your phone’s other number

tedium.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 174 posts

Re: The IMEI Code: Your phone’s other number

#21

Post by hinkley »

londons_explore wrote: post #3

The fact the IMEI is generally not editable seems like a massive privacy hole. Just let people edit it. Then I can be someone new every day and nobody can track me. Mac address randomization does that for wifi. Now do the same for mobile networks.

I think I’m more concerned with the fact that the carriers know the IMEI of phones and claim that they can do nothing about stolen phones. That was the beginning of the end of my infatuation with the mobile space.

I should have been well positioned for early retirement during the early smart phone gold rush but was just so put off by the Ma Bell feeling of the mobile industry that I had exited before most people had even entered.

Re: The IMEI Code: Your phone’s other number

#22

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #8
londons_explore wrote: post #3

The fact the IMEI is generally not editable seems like a massive privacy hole. Just let people edit it. Then I can be someone new every day and nobody can track me. Mac address randomization does that for wifi. Now do the same for mobile networks.

There is no privacy concern, really, as this is unique to the device, not subscriber, and only shared with the network operator, who obviously already "tracks" the subscriber through the SIM , which contains the subscriber identifier (IMSI). On the other hand, the IMEI in principle makes tracking and disabling of stolen devices easy. By the way, in the UK it is actually an offence to change the IMEI [1] [1] https://w…

"There is no privacy concern, really..." Except for the network operator, who needs to track a SIM card not a phone, but who can track you across networks and SIM cards if he has the IMEI. There is no reason the IMEI needs to be stable.

The network operator does NOT need to know who you are, even if you live in a repressive country that mandates tying ID to mobile phone lines. Get a SIM card in person and top up in cash, or use a virtual credit card, or pay in cryptocurrency for an eSIM, or get a subscription in a less oppressive country and roam.

Invisv is a great suggestion.

Re: The IMEI Code: Your phone’s other number

#23

Post by fencepost »

hinkley wrote: post #21
londons_explore wrote: post #3

The fact the IMEI is generally not editable seems like a massive privacy hole. Just let people edit it. Then I can be someone new every day and nobody can track me. Mac address randomization does that for wifi. Now do the same for mobile networks.

I think I’m more concerned with the fact that the carriers know the IMEI of phones and claim that they can do nothing about stolen phones. That was the beginning of the end of my infatuation with the mobile space. I should have been well positioned for early retirement during the early smart phone gold rush but was just so put off by the Ma Bell feeling of the mobile industry that I had exited before most people had…

I think I’m more concerned with the fact that the carriers know the IMEI of phones and claim that they can do nothing about stolen phones.

Maybe once upon a time, but I'm pretty sure stolen devices can be blacklisted from networks these days.

Re: The IMEI Code: Your phone’s other number

#24

Post by apienx »

londons_explore wrote: post #3

The fact the IMEI is generally not editable seems like a massive privacy hole. Just let people edit it. Then I can be someone new every day and nobody can track me. Mac address randomization does that for wifi. Now do the same for mobile networks.

SMS specifications include "Type 0" messages, also known as Silent SMS. These messages don't trigger any even on the phone when received, but they do send back an ACK that includes IMSI metadata. Silent SM, are literally defined in the RFC and primarily used to covertly track user locations without judicial oversight.

GSM, SS7, etc. are massive privacy holes _by design_.

Re: The IMEI Code: Your phone’s other number

#25

Post by ixwt »

kevincox wrote: post #5
londons_explore wrote: post #3

The fact the IMEI is generally not editable seems like a massive privacy hole. Just let people edit it. Then I can be someone new every day and nobody can track me. Mac address randomization does that for wifi. Now do the same for mobile networks.

I really want mobile networks to accept their role as dumb data pipes. I should be able to just provide a password or certificate and connect. No IEMI, no SIM. And while we are at it stop tunneling my data back "home" when I travel. I don't want increased latency.

> And while we are at it stop tunneling my data back "home" when I travel.

Oddly enough, I found this to be a plus when I traveled to China for work. My data was unmolested by the Great Firewall of China. I was able to get on websites with my mobile data that I couldn't when using wifi in the hotels.

Re: The IMEI Code: Your phone’s other number

#26

Post by harshaxnim »

kbolino wrote: post #15
KenArrari wrote: post #6

If someone knows your IMEI can they track you?

Not from the other side of a wide-area network, but if they are continuously in close proximity to you, or can effectively monitor everywhere (three letter agency), then yes. Of course, there are other ways to track you.

Can you elaborate on what you meant by trackable when they're "continously in close proximity to you"?

Re: The IMEI Code: Your phone’s other number

#27

Post by boznz »

kbolino wrote: post #18
londons_explore wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

rand()?

A MAC address is 48 bits and an IMEI is about the same entropy-wise. That's not nearly enough room to avoid duplicates (even SLAAC requires duplicate address detection, and IPv6 has a lot more bits to work with). You'd need a whole new layer 2 protocol, though to be fair you might be able to strip it down to just doing collision detection/avoidance and leave addressing up to layer 3 with IPv6, but that's not going to…

Surely the uniqueness is only required at the bottom end of the stack before the first 'router' ie the cell tower

Re: The IMEI Code: Your phone’s other number

#28

Post by least »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #8
londons_explore wrote: post #3

The fact the IMEI is generally not editable seems like a massive privacy hole. Just let people edit it. Then I can be someone new every day and nobody can track me. Mac address randomization does that for wifi. Now do the same for mobile networks.

There is no privacy concern, really, as this is unique to the device, not subscriber, and only shared with the network operator, who obviously already "tracks" the subscriber through the SIM , which contains the subscriber identifier (IMSI). On the other hand, the IMEI in principle makes tracking and disabling of stolen devices easy. By the way, in the UK it is actually an offence to change the IMEI [1] [1] https://w…

This is 100% a privacy concern if you're dealing with state level actors.

Re: The IMEI Code: Your phone’s other number

#29

Post by nolan879 »

fencepost wrote: post #23
hinkley wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I’m more concerned with the fact that the carriers know the IMEI of phones and claim that they can do nothing about stolen phones. That was the beginning of the end of my infatuation with the mobile space. I should have been well positioned for early retirement during the early smart phone gold rush but was just so put off by the Ma Bell feeling of the mobile industry that I had exited before most people had…

I think I’m more concerned with the fact that the carriers know the IMEI of phones and claim that they can do nothing about stolen phones. Maybe once upon a time, but I'm pretty sure stolen devices can be blacklisted from networks these days.

Carriers have been blacklisting IMEIs for at least 10+ years. Since phones tended to be carrier-locked back then you couldn't go to a new carrier without being in good standing to get your device's unlock code from the old carrier. Now that devices are available unlocked by default, it is probably harder since it would require carriers to communicate IMEIs?

Re: The IMEI Code: Your phone’s other number

#30

Post by londons_explore »

hinkley wrote: post #21
londons_explore wrote: post #3

The fact the IMEI is generally not editable seems like a massive privacy hole. Just let people edit it. Then I can be someone new every day and nobody can track me. Mac address randomization does that for wifi. Now do the same for mobile networks.

I think I’m more concerned with the fact that the carriers know the IMEI of phones and claim that they can do nothing about stolen phones. That was the beginning of the end of my infatuation with the mobile space. I should have been well positioned for early retirement during the early smart phone gold rush but was just so put off by the Ma Bell feeling of the mobile industry that I had exited before most people had…

In Kazakhstan, when a phone is used on a mobile network for the first time, the IMEI of the phone gets locked to that mobile network and that sim card. When you buy the sim card, they photocopy your passport/ID card.

No other sim will work in it until you take that photo ID/passport to the mobile companies office to have it unlocked. The photo id (even if expired) becomes the unlock code for the phone.

Made phone theft drop to pretty much zero.

Post reply on HN