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Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

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Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#71

Post by constantcrying »

dale_glass wrote: post #63
constantcrying wrote: post #39

Why do they have to do this? This is really, really stupid. My issue isn't even that someone tries to replace sudo. That may or may not be a completely fine thing to do, depending on the state of sudo and what improvements can be made. But what makes me really upset is this completely unexplainable need to make everything part of one particular init system. There is absolutely no reason to tie your new sudo replaceme…

> But what makes me really upset is this completely unexplainable need to make everything part of one particular init system. There is absolutely no reason to tie your new sudo replacement to systemd. Absolutely none. You should look at it differently, and then it'll make perfect sense. systemd has long stopped being just an init system. It's a system tooling suite. When thinking about systemd don't think "PID 1", th…

>systemd has long stopped being just an init system.

I think that this has always been the core criticism of anyone who objects to them. Besides systemd, the init system, just being very poorly thought out.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#72

Post by constantcrying »

deng wrote: post #53
constantcrying wrote: post #39

Why do they have to do this? This is really, really stupid. My issue isn't even that someone tries to replace sudo. That may or may not be a completely fine thing to do, depending on the state of sudo and what improvements can be made. But what makes me really upset is this completely unexplainable need to make everything part of one particular init system. There is absolutely no reason to tie your new sudo replaceme…

> But what makes me really upset is this completely unexplainable need to make everything part of one particular init system. It is not unexplainable at all. In fact, the article explains it very well. sudo allows you to execute code as another user. If you think about it, you could also replace sudo with ssh to localhost - just set a root password and allow root logins. Now, security-wise, this would obviously be a…

>Systemd already handles logins

Exactly that was my objection.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#73

Post by timetraveller26 »

andrewstuart wrote: post #14

“Systemd” and “expand” used in the same sentence….. all the systemd haters will be triggered like it’s the national rifle association shooting carnival. In many ways systemd has actually become the operating system. It’s so pervasive that it certainly is more deserving of naming rights than gnu. “Systemd/Linux” makes more sense than “gnu/Linux”

"Systemd wants to expand to include a replacement of the Linux kernel" headline coming soon

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#75

Post by mid-kid »

kbar13 wrote: post #45

systemd has been a net positive for the linux ecosystem. remember when you had to write bash scripts to start, stop, restart services and handle any other signals you want to send it? nowadays it's a unit file (basically just an ini file) away with relatively straightforward API. and you can actually declare startup dependencies and other useful relationships past just "prepend a number signifying when it should run…

I'd agree with your message if systemd was just an init system.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#76

Post by dale_glass »

constantcrying wrote: post #71
dale_glass wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But what makes me really upset is this completely unexplainable need to make everything part of one particular init system. There is absolutely no reason to tie your new sudo replacement to systemd. Absolutely none. You should look at it differently, and then it'll make perfect sense. systemd has long stopped being just an init system. It's a system tooling suite. When thinking about systemd don't think "PID 1", th…

>systemd has long stopped being just an init system. I think that this has always been the core criticism of anyone who objects to them. Besides systemd, the init system, just being very poorly thought out.

What's poorly thought out about the init system? It's not perfect for sure, but on the whole I don't have any issues with it.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#77

Post by constantcrying »

Jonnax wrote: post #59
constantcrying wrote: post #39

Why do they have to do this? This is really, really stupid. My issue isn't even that someone tries to replace sudo. That may or may not be a completely fine thing to do, depending on the state of sudo and what improvements can be made. But what makes me really upset is this completely unexplainable need to make everything part of one particular init system. There is absolutely no reason to tie your new sudo replaceme…

Is that really how they develop software? Because I'm pretty sure that most of the components are optional. You did not even discuss the reasoning given for not using sudo to instead hop on your soapbox to say it's bad software with bad practices and that they are stupid. It's annoying how in the the more surface level Linux communities there's 0 value in discussing systemd. "1 million lines of code for PID0!" The ne…

Why are you bringing up random arguments I didn't even make?

No, I am a dedicated systemd hater ever since I spend over a month full time writing and debugging systemd services for work. Systemd (the init system) is just all around badly designed and executed, I have very little confidence in the developers and their technical abilities and their tendencies to expand into completely unrelated areas for seemingly no reason makes me quite concerned.

I wouldn't blame the xz exploit on them, it is very hard to call it their fault in any way. But I do think it is a symptom of a system which has grown far too thin and wide.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#78

Post by constantcrying »

dale_glass wrote: post #76
constantcrying wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>systemd has long stopped being just an init system. I think that this has always been the core criticism of anyone who objects to them. Besides systemd, the init system, just being very poorly thought out.

What's poorly thought out about the init system? It's not perfect for sure, but on the whole I don't have any issues with it.

How much time have you spent writing and debugging systemd init files?

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#79

Post by zokier »

constantcrying wrote: post #39

Why do they have to do this? This is really, really stupid. My issue isn't even that someone tries to replace sudo. That may or may not be a completely fine thing to do, depending on the state of sudo and what improvements can be made. But what makes me really upset is this completely unexplainable need to make everything part of one particular init system. There is absolutely no reason to tie your new sudo replaceme…

Instead of just hating based on assumptions it would be useful to actually familiarize with the thing you are critizising

> But what makes me really upset is this completely unexplainable need to make everything part of one particular init system

systemd is not init system, its and umbrella project for various core system components, which includes an init system.

> There is absolutely no reason to tie your new sudo replacement to systemd

well, in this case there is good reason to have it interact with service manager in general

> But with one key difference: it’s not in fact SUID. Instead it just asks the service manager to invoke a command or shell under the target user’s UID [...] Or in other words: the target command is invoked in an isolated exec context, freshly forked off PID 1, without inheriting any context from the client

strictly speaking it's not 100% coupled to systemd specifically, it most likely uses systemds d-bus API, which is part of their "portable and stable" APIs and as such could be implemented by other service managers https://systemd.io/PORTABILITY_AND_STABILITY/

> This is a completely insane way to develop software, instead of creating a new piece of software in a separate project they will force all their projects simultaneously onto all their users for absolutely no reason

The couplings between systemd projects are not that tight, you can pick and choose which parts you want, they explicitly are not "forcing all their projects" to consumers. The minimal systemd build has only init, journald, and udev, which is not exactly sprawling huge. All the rest of the projects are fully optional, and I believe quite many of them can actually work without systemd-init

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#80

Post by constantcrying »

dmm wrote: post #40
constantcrying wrote: post #39

Why do they have to do this? This is really, really stupid. My issue isn't even that someone tries to replace sudo. That may or may not be a completely fine thing to do, depending on the state of sudo and what improvements can be made. But what makes me really upset is this completely unexplainable need to make everything part of one particular init system. There is absolutely no reason to tie your new sudo replaceme…

> they will force all their projects simultaneously onto all their users for absolutely no reason. That's just not true. Just because a system uses systemd the init system doesn't mean the it is forced to use the other components.

The single beat reason for doing this is to get a coherent complete system. This is what every other person here says.

You can not try to create a large coherent system and then tell people they shouldn't use that particular part. That is totally disingenuous. Systemd is DESIGNED to be an all or nothing deal.

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