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China’s Moon atlas is the most detailed ever made

nature.com

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Re: China’s Moon atlas is the most detailed ever made

#61
post #11
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Direct link to the JPEG: https://china.scidb.cn/download?fileId=62b3ceb08e66a93f11a07...

That looks almost identical to the one from 2022. The only obvious differences that I see (besides "pre-proofs" watermarked all over it) are in the Geologic Time Scale table and the credits on the lower left. The map itself looks the same as far as I can tell.

Yeah, this article is triggered by the "release" of the multi-page atlas, although there's no obvious way to purchase it. The JPG of the single plate has not been updated since the 2022 release; the pre-print remains the only available copy.

Re: China’s Moon atlas is the most detailed ever made

#62

Being in the U.S., I am isolated from China and the zeitgeist of its people - but I'm getting little hints that the Moon may very well be in the forefront. With this "mood", Chinese astronauts on the Moon seems inevitable now. And I don't say that with dread, it's just more of an awakening I am having to a future that I had not thought much about until very recently. I think in fact I look forward to it because I sup…

While it's inevitable that if China continues on its current trajectory, it'll eventually become the second nation to put people on the Moon on the back of its own tech, it still doesn't feel like their efforts are as heavily directed towards that goal yet. Even the US's poorly funded (besides SLS) and half-hearted (from Congress) Artemis program feels like an urgent rush to the Moon in comparison. I wonder if these…

Even it looks like they will be within weeks launching a second lunar sample return mission.

Re: China’s Moon atlas is the most detailed ever made

#63
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I am aware of it, but Russia has been talking about doing big stuff for decades now with mainly a rapidly decaying space industry to show for it, and none of the other partners are exactly notable space industry participants either. So it just looks like a way to appear to be competing with Artemis without having to actually put in the same kind of effort. I get the impression that it'll fall apart once Artemis s…

I agree about China's partners. Russia may have some legacy technology to contribute, the others are lightweights. That aspect of the program is mainly about politics. The Chinese space program however looks serious enough. Some recent press: https://thediplomat.com/2023/10/long-march-9-rocket-will-be-... https://www.space.com/china-names-spacecraft-astronaut-moon-... https://spacenews.com/china-to-debut-large-reusab…

Those are much more convincing about their seriousness, thanks!

Re: China’s Moon atlas is the most detailed ever made

#64
post #23

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Why would we aim for the moon instead of aiming anywhere but the moon?

I guess it is where it is close, and I don't really care too much about it. I like Bezos idea of space rather than Musk's: use Moon as a production base or something, let's move the bad stuffs pollution, garbage, nuclear waste) to the moon.

Once you get into an orbit of the Earth, you are "halfway to anywhere" [1] in terms of fuel costs. Getting out of the Earth's gravity well is the hard part, once you're up there you might as well put the trash much further away than the moon. Especially because if we're shipping trash, we can just set and forget it on a trajectory to the dump site, we don't need to worry about it taking a long time or to land safely.

[1]https://projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/surfaceorbit.php

Re: China’s Moon atlas is the most detailed ever made

#66
post #59

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This isn't authoritative in the slightest, but having lived in China I got a general feeling that Chinese see themselves as a third world country that's kinda backwards and trying it's best to catch up. This was my sense talking to normal people that sell noodles and whatnot. There is a kinda separate ultra nationalist crowd that probably see things different, but they don't really represent the majority. I think lan…

in the major cities at least, there is significantly growing awareness atp that domestic infrastructure, technology, etc. is simply better than in the west. people meme about western cities as being comparable to villages however 1. they certainly do recognize areas where they are "behind". more interesting than technologies (ex. space, hn's new pet topic in semiconductors eyeroll , etc.) are things like recognizing…

I've definetly seen this too, especially among younger kids raised in the cities!

Re: China’s Moon atlas is the most detailed ever made

#67
post #15

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Lunar resource extraction is unlikely to be viable for anything other than building on the moon - ever. The quantities of energy involved are simply too high.

I thought the whole thing was He3 makes it viable.

Only if and when fusion reactors using He3 become possible, which for now is unpredictable.

Re: China’s Moon atlas is the most detailed ever made

#69
post #32

Being in the U.S., I am isolated from China and the zeitgeist of its people - but I'm getting little hints that the Moon may very well be in the forefront. With this "mood", Chinese astronauts on the Moon seems inevitable now. And I don't say that with dread, it's just more of an awakening I am having to a future that I had not thought much about until very recently. I think in fact I look forward to it because I sup…

Imagine how different, and worse, the world would be had explorers not ventured across the sea just to see what was on the other side. We should explore for exploration's sake.

The Iroquois had farms, you know. They grew corn and lived in a communal system where unused land was shared, but there was enough for everyone to have their own area as they wanted. Women had important roles in the labour force and political system. Famine was apparently quite rare, to the degree that the first Europeans across the pond were envious of their food security.

Down south, the Aztec capital was built in the middle of a lake, and had probably around as many people living in it as London, Paris, Venice, and Lisbon combined. The marketplace alone was around the size of a European capital. Tenochtitlan had aqueducts made out of terracotta, and the people bathed twice a day and drank spring water from a separate source. The palace had multiple zoos, gardens, and aquaria, and the nicer parts of the city were built entirely out of brick and masonry. The big temple in the middle was hundreds of feet tall, and only a couple meters shorter than Notre Dame in Paris.

Of course, all of that was destroyed, completely and utterly.

The myth of the romantic Age of Sail explorer is not compatible with the power structures of the time. What king would send perfectly good ships away "just to see what was on the other side", when there were political rivals to outcompete and usurp on this side? And what king would survive sending such resources away, if they did not gain a profit from doing so (through whatever tactics of exploitation were most expedient)?

Certainly the world would have been quite different if Columbus and Cortés decided to work on themselves, instead of concluding that the Earth is shaped like a tiny pear so they should raze a couple cities they just found out about, or whatever else was going on in those men's heads…

Re: China’s Moon atlas is the most detailed ever made

#70
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>had explorers not ventured across the sea just to see what was on the other side I mean, they mostly did it to establish trade routes and exploit previously untapped natural resources, not out of a mere spirit of exploration. And even if the explorers themselves did it out of a spirit of exploration, the ones funding their expeditions generally had other motives.

Then let's explore for the riches that could be (are) there? If that's the motivation some people need, so be it. We're undoubtably in a better place as a society now than we were in the 1200s so it stands to reason that exploring the solar system and beyond would stand to put us in a better position come 3200 or 4200 than if we simply languish here.

North America is populated mostly by desecandants of later immigrants to the continent that had nothing to do the original "exploration". The common folk in the colonizing countries had nothing to do with it either. The original local populations were all but wiped out by disease and war. The people who actually did most of the "exploring" were probably too busy worrying about surviving scurvy and and the winter to care about such romantic ideas. And at least one country (Scotland) was effectively bankrupted and lost its independence specifically because they spent an unreasonable amount of money on packing perfectly fine people onto ships to send to their deaths.

You could say we're better off as a civilization than we were a thousand years ago. But that's true in nearly all countries, regardless of their colonial history. I suspect it has more to do with the Haber process and refrigeration than James Cook or even Ferdinand Magellan.

Focusing inwards to grow isn't "languishing". And while I'm all for the platonic idea of exploration for exploring's sake, there is also a stage of (im)maturity where trying to go somewhere new just results in bringing all your old problems with you.

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