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Physical fitness and risk of mental disorders in children and adolescents

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Re: Physical fitness and risk of mental disorders in children and adolescents

#61

Post by surfpel »

slothtrop wrote: post #34
surfpel wrote: post #9

Not doubting the importance of physical activity, but poor mental health makes it significantly harder to maintain fitness as a child. Often, school sports have minimum GPA requirements. A poor home life increases chances of mental illness and decreases chances that someone will drive you to practice. Will you even maintain the team sport if your teammates never accept you, given whatever mental condition that gives…

Obesity is an epidemic, broken or abusive households are not. It doesn't make sense to be skeptical of fitness on the conceit that it might not handle issues in the margins (except, they do -- sports can improve self-esteem in kids who otherwise struggle). > Will you even maintain the team sport if your teammates never accept you Kids are generally pretty accepting, and in a sports setting they spend nearly all of th…

> Kids are generally pretty accepting

Ha

> No one cares about quirks

Haha

Re: Physical fitness and risk of mental disorders in children and adolescents

#62

Post by Jtsummers »

mattmaroon wrote: post #51
canucker2016 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've done the analysis: meta-analysis of random controlled trials , see https://www.bmj.com/content/384/bmj-2023-075847 "Exercise is an effective treatment for depression, with walking or jogging, yoga, and strength training more effective than other exercises, particularly when intense. Yoga and strength training were well tolerated compared with other treatments. Exercise appeared equally effective for people wi…

That’s a meta analysis (which is always a solid indicator of pseudoscience) of studies that are not really controlled because A.) you have to actually do the exercise, which means the people who don’t may simply not do so because their mental illness is worse or at least different than the ones who do. 2. If you’ve ever read the attempts to quantify various mental illnesses, they’re extremely unscientific and borderl…

> And I still stand by that there’s no way you could realistically say this study indicates causation with any certainty. Though that never stops people in the social sciences I guess.

That's a fair statement if the authors actually claimed to have identified a causal relationship. They don't, here's their conclusion:

>> Our research demonstrates that physical fitness, particularly in cardiorespiratory and muscular fitness domains, is associated with the risk of developing mental disorders in youth. Given the increasing incidences and prevalence of these mental disorders in children and adolescents, our study contributes valuable evidence to the burgeoning field of research exploring the connection between physical fitness and mental health. This finding underscores the need for further research into targeted physical fitness programs, which hold significant potential as primary preventive interventions against mental disorders in children and adolescents.

Re: Physical fitness and risk of mental disorders in children and adolescents

#63

Post by NickC25 »

zzzeek wrote: post #39
NickC25 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was routinely picked last if not at all in sports all throughout my childhood. As a result, I picked up sports I could do on my own, such as lifting weights, biking, swimming, and running. Individual sports such as golf and tennis followed naturally. I would have otherwise been a complete shut-in. Although I do have a lack of executive function, I make sure to get exercise as often as I can. Classes at the local gy…

> As a result, I picked up sports I could do on my own, such as lifting weights, biking, swimming, and running. Individual sports such as golf and tennis followed naturally. good for you but yes, you had people in your family who were athletes and apparently did not dissuade you further. lots of kids are not really that lucky.

True, but they certainly didn't encourage me. Too busy with their own activities.

Re: Physical fitness and risk of mental disorders in children and adolescents

#64

Post by mattmaroon »

Jtsummers wrote: post #62
mattmaroon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a meta analysis (which is always a solid indicator of pseudoscience) of studies that are not really controlled because A.) you have to actually do the exercise, which means the people who don’t may simply not do so because their mental illness is worse or at least different than the ones who do. 2. If you’ve ever read the attempts to quantify various mental illnesses, they’re extremely unscientific and borderl…

> And I still stand by that there’s no way you could realistically say this study indicates causation with any certainty. Though that never stops people in the social sciences I guess. That's a fair statement if the authors actually claimed to have identified a causal relationship. They don't, here's their conclusion: >> Our research demonstrates that physical fitness, particularly in cardiorespiratory and muscular f…

True, I guess they’re not making a concrete claim about which was which.

Re: Physical fitness and risk of mental disorders in children and adolescents

#65

Post by TacticalCoder »

surfpel wrote: post #9

Not doubting the importance of physical activity, but poor mental health makes it significantly harder to maintain fitness as a child. Often, school sports have minimum GPA requirements. A poor home life increases chances of mental illness and decreases chances that someone will drive you to practice. Will you even maintain the team sport if your teammates never accept you, given whatever mental condition that gives…

> ... A poor home life increases chances of mental illness and decreases chances that someone will drive you to practice. Will you even maintain the team sport if your teammates never accept you...

I've never been and shall never be a team player. I go my own way. Never did any team sport (I hate them and I hate watching them). My parents never drove me to any practice (OK, OK, one year of judo but that's it).

A crappy skateboard, a used BMX clone, and self-assembled rollerskates go a long way (and in the not so long run cost less money than the fuel to drive to sport).

I'm still fit at 51 and I attribute that to me moving my arse off when I was a kid (and then teenager) and going out to play in the streets and parks every single day with my skate/roller/bicycle.

People should stop looking for excuses. And they should especially stop looking to excuse others.

Others don't like you? Grow a pair. Build a carapace. Learn to wheelie and learn to do kickflips. You'll get the girls.

Team sports are totally overrated (nowadays I still play some tennis).

Re: Physical fitness and risk of mental disorders in children and adolescents

#66

Post by deodar »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #65
surfpel wrote: post #9

Not doubting the importance of physical activity, but poor mental health makes it significantly harder to maintain fitness as a child. Often, school sports have minimum GPA requirements. A poor home life increases chances of mental illness and decreases chances that someone will drive you to practice. Will you even maintain the team sport if your teammates never accept you, given whatever mental condition that gives…

> ... A poor home life increases chances of mental illness and decreases chances that someone will drive you to practice. Will you even maintain the team sport if your teammates never accept you... I've never been and shall never be a team player. I go my own way. Never did any team sport (I hate them and I hate watching them). My parents never drove me to any practice (OK, OK, one year of judo but that's it). A crap…

> Others don't like you? Grow a pair.

Stop being depressed.

Re: Physical fitness and risk of mental disorders in children and adolescents

#67

Post by sn9 »

delichon wrote: post #2

The role of brain health in mental illness is commonly discounted, but so consistently found in studies. I got roasted here for recommending psychiatrist Mary Edes' book on improving mental health with dietary changes, but the benefits of the approach are clear. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/01/27/1227062... I've resolved most of my diabetes type 2 with diet, and nobody should be surprised that this…

I think most people are on board with diet plausibly being a significant lever for improving mental health, and keto can be a way to do that, but the meat-heavy way most people implement keto massively increases risk of cardiovascular disease.

We have an overwhelming mountain of evidence that saturated fat intake from animal sources above a certain threshold percent of one's caloric intake causally increases risk of heart disease through well-characterized mechanisms and that reducing one's intake below that threshold causally improves health.

https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/a-basic-guide-to-choles...

Likewise the benefits of a high fiber diet are also overwhelmingly documented, and it's a rare person for whom it isn't beneficial. Your doctor can tell you if you're one of these unlucky people.

You can eat a keto diet that's low in saturated fats from animals and high in fiber, but that's rarely done and most of the health benefits from keto is from the increased rate of adherence to a diet that makes it easier to stay in a caloric deficit.

Re: Physical fitness and risk of mental disorders in children and adolescents

#69

Post by somenameforme »

canucker2016 wrote: post #49
somenameforme wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or even just buying a few fun and dirt cheap physical toys - hula hoop, jump rope, etc. Staying in minimally decent physical shape is super easy and cheap - even more so for a child.

but look at this from the kid's perspective. What are their parents, siblings, and/or friends doing in their spare time? Are they going out for walks or bike rides? Or are they glued to some media/social media device? Sure, there are kids who will get physical activity regardless of nearby influences, but many will decide to emulate the behaviour of those around them.

The study was in Taiwan, not America. They have extremely good educational outcomes, the educational system is brutal, and the Chinese parent stereotype is also very much true. Screw off in Taiwanese schools and you don't even get go to high school, but end up in special vocational training schools - not that there's anything at all wrong with training for vocations, but I mention it due to the sharp contrast with the US, as well as the motivation it creates for kids to maintain more options in their future.

So if a student is out of shape it's because they're in school from 7 to 5, in cram school from 5:30 to 7, doing homework until 9 or 10, and then doing it all over again the next day. But they're also the type that would still be 100% willing and able to squeeze in more physical stuff if told to do so, especially when it's good for your overall performance - which it is.

---

Beyond all this, I really don't understand the modern Western trend of rejecting personal (or in this case parental) responsibility for basically anything and everything. It's predictably leading to terrible outcomes in near to every facet of life. Literally any parent in any situation can make their kid go jump rope for 20 minutes a day. It's even fun. Even better, the parent or parents could even do it with their children.

Re: Physical fitness and risk of mental disorders in children and adolescents

#70

Post by slothtrop »

noah91734 wrote: post #47
slothtrop wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intramurals are one option, often favored by immigrant parents who place more importance on academics, to exercise at school and by extension (usually) fairly close to home (see: volleyball, basketball, wrestling). Aside from some sports that require lots of travel around the city (like hockey, soccer) there are normally quite a few that tend to stay fixed, except for tournaments.

You are missing the point entirely. Only in America is "exercise" something you must go out of your way to do. Walking (miles) is exercise. Playing is exercise. Our kids do neither of these things independently of household income because we've built our cities to make walking impossible and dangerous, and because we've now normalized locking our kids away indoors and shoving an iPad in their face because we convince…

> Only in America is "exercise" something you must go out of your way to do.

No. Growing obesity rates is not an issue unique strictly to America, it's just prevalent there.

> we've built our cities to make walking impossible and dangerous

Kids can and do play in the suburbs. There are parks everywhere. They ride their bikes everywhere. The "fuckcars" angle fails to account for the disparity.

> normalized locking our kids away indoors and shoving an iPad in their face

Now you're getting warmer.

> You are missing the point entirely.

I addressed the argument conveyed to make your "point", and there isn't only a single "point" to be made in discourse. Notwithstanding that if you wanted to make another point, then you'd have made it.

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