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Answering Legal Questions with LLMs

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Re: Answering Legal Questions with LLMs

#71
post #25

I saw a RAG demo from a startup that allows you to upload patient's medical docs, then the doctor can ask it questions like: > what's the patient's bp? even questions about drugs, histories, interactions, etc. The AI keeps in mind the patient's age and condition in its responses, when recommending things, etc. It reminded me of a time I was at the ER for a rib injury and could see my doctor Wikipedia'ing stuff - coul…

> I can imagine the same thing with laws. Preload a city's, county's etc. entire set of laws and for a sentencing, upload a defendant's criminal history report, plea, and other info then the DA/judge/whoever can ask questions to the AI legal advisor just like the doctor does with patient docs.

This has been tried already, and it hasn't worked out well so far for NYC [0]. RAG can helps avoid complete hallucinations but it can't eliminate them altogether, and as others have noted the failure mode for LLMs when they're wrong is that they're confidently wrong. You can't distinguish between confident-and-accurate bot legal advice and confident-but-wrong bot legal advice, so a savvy user would just avoid the bot legal advice at all.

[0] https://arstechnica.com/ai/2024/03/nycs-government-chatbot-i...

Re: Answering Legal Questions with LLMs

#72
post #25

I saw a RAG demo from a startup that allows you to upload patient's medical docs, then the doctor can ask it questions like: > what's the patient's bp? even questions about drugs, histories, interactions, etc. The AI keeps in mind the patient's age and condition in its responses, when recommending things, etc. It reminded me of a time I was at the ER for a rib injury and could see my doctor Wikipedia'ing stuff - coul…

We have a kind of popular legal forum in my country and I'm convinced if I managed to scrape it properly and format QA pairs for fine-tuning it would make a kick-ass legal assistant (paralegal?). Supply it with some actual laws and codification via RAG and voila. Just need to figure out how to take no liability.

Re: Answering Legal Questions with LLMs

#73
post #64
post #25

I saw a RAG demo from a startup that allows you to upload patient's medical docs, then the doctor can ask it questions like: > what's the patient's bp? even questions about drugs, histories, interactions, etc. The AI keeps in mind the patient's age and condition in its responses, when recommending things, etc. It reminded me of a time I was at the ER for a rib injury and could see my doctor Wikipedia'ing stuff - coul…

> Preload a city's, county's etc. entire set of laws You would also need to load an enormous amount of precedential case law, at least in the US and other common law jurisdictions. Synthesizing case law into rules of law applicable to a specific case requires complex analysis that is frequently sensitive to details of the factual context, where LLMs' lack of common sense can lead it to make false conclusions, particu…

> You would also need to load an enormous amount of precedential case law

Very easily done. Is that it?

> lack of common sense, false conclusions

The AI tool doesn't replace the judge/DA/etc. it's just a very useful tool for them to use. Checkout the "RAG-based learning" section of this app I built (https://github.com/bennyschmidt/ragdoll-studio) there's a video that shows how you can effectively load new knowledge into it (I use LlamaIndex for RAG). For example, past cases that set legal precedents, and other information you want to be considered. It creates a database of the files you load in, so it's not making those assumptions like an LLM without RAG would. I think a human would be more error-prone than an LLM with vector DB of specific data + querying engine.

> I don't see the utility

Then you are not paying attention or haven't used LLMs that much. Maybe you're unfamiliar with the kind of work it's good at.

> actual work involved in practicing law

This is what it's best at, and what people are already using RAG for: Reading patient medical docs, technical documentation, etc. this is precisely what humans are bad at and will offload to technology.

> actual research is required

You have not tried RAG.

> LLMs struggle to produce useful outputs

You have not tried RAG.

> LLMs are unlikely to identify issues

You have not tried RAG.

> the LLM by definition is creative analysis

You have not tried RAG.

You can load an entire product catalog into LlamaIndex and the LLM will have perfect knowledge of pricing, inventory, etc. This specific domain knowledge of inventory allows you to have the accurate, transactional conversations that a regular LLM isn't designed for.

Re: Answering Legal Questions with LLMs

#74
post #60
post #25

I saw a RAG demo from a startup that allows you to upload patient's medical docs, then the doctor can ask it questions like: > what's the patient's bp? even questions about drugs, histories, interactions, etc. The AI keeps in mind the patient's age and condition in its responses, when recommending things, etc. It reminded me of a time I was at the ER for a rib injury and could see my doctor Wikipedia'ing stuff - coul…

Obviously, no idea why your doc was using Wikipedia so much, but in general the fair baseline to compare isn't Wikipedia, it's mature, professionally reviewed material like Uptodate, Dynamed, AMBOSS, etc that do have clinical decision support tools and purpose built calculators and references. Of course they're all working on GenAI stuff. (Not to mention professional wikis like LIFTL, emcrit, IBCC). An issue with the…

“wealthy institutions easily have access, poorer ones do not),”

Everything you said is agreeable except that statement. The institution’s wealth doesn’t trickle down to the docs, who pay out of pocket for many of these tools.

Re: Answering Legal Questions with LLMs

#75
Yes, law applies rules to facts.

No, connecting the facts and rules will not give you the answer.

Lawyers are only required when there are real legal issues: boundary cases, procedural defenses, countervailing leverage...

But sometimes legal heroes like Witkins drag through all the cases and statutes, identifying potential issues and condensing them in summaries. New lawyers use these as a starting-point for their investigations.

So a Law LLM first needs to be trained on Witkins to understand the language of issues, as well as the applicable law.

Then somehow the facts need to be loaded in a form recognizable as such (somewhat like a doctor translating "dizziness" to "postural hypotension" with some queries). That would be an interesting LLM application in its own right.

Putting those together in a domain-specific way would be a great business: target California Divorce, Texas product-liability tort, etc.

Law firms changed from pipes to pyramids in the 1980's as firms expanded their use of associates (and started the whole competition-to-partnership). This could replace associates, but then you'd lose the competitiveness that disciplines associates (and reduce buyers available for the partnership). Also, corporate clients nurture associates as potential replacements and redundant information sources, as a way of managing their dependence on external law firms. For LLM's to have a sizable impact on law, you'd need to sort out the transaction cost economics features of law firms, both internally and externally.

Re: Answering Legal Questions with LLMs

#76
post #25

I saw a RAG demo from a startup that allows you to upload patient's medical docs, then the doctor can ask it questions like: > what's the patient's bp? even questions about drugs, histories, interactions, etc. The AI keeps in mind the patient's age and condition in its responses, when recommending things, etc. It reminded me of a time I was at the ER for a rib injury and could see my doctor Wikipedia'ing stuff - coul…

If the court AI were a cost cutting measure before real courts were involved and appeals to a conventional court could be made then I think it could be done with current tech. Courts in the US are generally overworked and I think many would see an AI arbiter as preferable to one-sided plea agreements.

Re: Answering Legal Questions with LLMs

#77
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is right. The sweat spot is twofold: 1) A replacement for general search on a topic where you have limited familiarity that can give you an answer for a concise question, or a starting point for more investigation or 2) For power-user use cases, where there already exists subject matter expertise, elaboration or extrapolation from a clear starting point to a clear end state, such as translation or contex…

Is "the sweat spot" where you want to be though?

Absolutely. If you're not sweating, you're not forcing your prey to stop for rest, and the ruminant you're chasing will outpace you.

Re: Answering Legal Questions with LLMs

#78
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've 100% found AI to be super helpful in learning a new programming language or refreshing on one I haven't used in a while. Hey how do I this thing in Gleam? What's Gleams equivalent of y? I turn it first instead of forums/stackoverflow/google now and would say I only need to turn to other sources less than maybe 5% of the time.

Absolutely, I can't imagine doing Angular without an LLM sidekick. Curiosity + LLM = instant knowledge

That's a weird thing to say considering people were doing Angular just fine before chatGPT made LLMs popular only 15 months ago.

Re: Answering Legal Questions with LLMs

#79
post #56
post #25

I saw a RAG demo from a startup that allows you to upload patient's medical docs, then the doctor can ask it questions like: > what's the patient's bp? even questions about drugs, histories, interactions, etc. The AI keeps in mind the patient's age and condition in its responses, when recommending things, etc. It reminded me of a time I was at the ER for a rib injury and could see my doctor Wikipedia'ing stuff - coul…

> It reminded me of a time I was at the ER for a rib injury and could see my doctor Wikipedia'ing stuff To be honest, I'm much more comfortable with a doctor looking things up on wikipedia than using LLMs. Same with lawyers, although the stakes are lower with lawyers. If I knew my doctor was relying on LLMs for anything beyond the trivial (RAGS or not), I'd lose a lot of trust in that doctor.

That's fair, and although I disagree, I at least like that the debate has evolved from doctors vs LLMs to Wikipedia vs LLMs.

When we accept that AI is not replacing knowledge workers, the conversation changes to a more digestible and debatable one: Are LLMs useful tools for experts? And I think the answer will be a resounding: Duh

Re: Answering Legal Questions with LLMs

#80
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Planes with autopilots can fly cheaper and "better" than human pilots. We still have human pilots. I want a lawyer who can do their work more effectively because they have assistance from LLM-powered tools. I might turn to LLM-only assistance for very low-stakes legal questions, but I'd much rather have an LLM-enhanced professional for the stuff that matters.

On the other hand, would you rather have a math professor calculate the square root of a large number for you, or would you use a calculator?

I'd rather have a math professor teach me why I'm doing a square root of a large number. Same thing applies to lawyers. All this talk about automating away complex professions is just that. LLMs are tools people use, not lawyers, doctors or professors.
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