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Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

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Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#41

Post by goosedragons »

Adverblessly wrote: post #31

Here are my personal principals: 1. Don't use too many thumb buttons, especially at odd angles, they just make my thumbs hurt after too much typing. 2. Don't use layers for any frequently used buttons, having to keep a button held for a while frequently just leads to more pain. 3. Function keys are mandatory. They aren't used frequently enough that having them in a "far" location is a problem, but when I do use them…

How are you doing layers? I have zero pain problems holding the delete key (on my Kinesis Advantage) to shift into my second layer for things like (,),{,}. It's way less pain then the using a typical keyboard layout. Hell it's easier than actual Shift.

I think your other principles are pretty personal. I obviously never use delete. Rarely use function keys or home/end/etc. I use cursor keys a bunch but the Kinesis has those in a spot I like.

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#42

Post by __mharrison__ »

bradley13 wrote: post #8

I spent a lot of time on this, back in my bored 20's. A super-optimized keyboard layout, which I used for a year. I measured my typing speed on qwerty before the change, and on the optimized keyboard after using it for a year. Yep, you do type faster. In my case, it was 10%. Honestly, it wasn't worth it. There are way too many disadvantages, not least of which is the fact that that only your computer has your weird k…

I went down that path 10 plus years ago. When I was writing my first book, my fingers got really sore.

I built (two) ErgoDox(en) and ended up using the Norman layout with various attempts at layers over the years. I'm now using a Lily58 with low-profile choc switches that I'm generally happy with.

I'm fine switching back to Qwerty keyboards, but if I were to go down the path again, I would advise myself to stick with Qwerty. I still have a pretty crazy keyboard layout and appreciate the ergonomic features.

Also, I've realized that everyone is different, and what works for one might not work for someone else.

Advice that I think works for everyone is to listen to your body. If your body is telling you that something isn't right, take steps to address them.

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#43

Post by samatman »

lawn wrote: post #38

I'll advice against keycap labels and printing a cheat sheet. Relying on them will feel better, but it's a crutch and you'll learn faster if you force yourself to do it the hard way of remembering. And before you mention it, the layout I use is quite complicated, and I still think it's much better to learn without any aid: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2022/09/06/the_current_t-34...

Seems sort of irrelevant if one is already a touch typist.

Personally, I find labeled keycaps pleasant for a few reasons: One is that I have a glowy keyboard, which is aesthetically enjoyable to me (or I wouldn't have one), and it wouldn't be as much fun if the LEDs were just shining up through identical dots.

Also, I find it useful to re-register my fingers. I added Braille dots to all the alphabetic keys, so I can also do this by touch, but a quick glance down also does the trick. For whatever reason, checking that my pinky will hit p is the most common case here.

Last, I find it helpful with chords, especially when I add a new one to the firmware. Layers as well. I do intend to converge on what my other two layers do, but there's been some churn, and it's easier to remember what a key does on a particular layer when it has a distinct symbol. Modified key commands which I frequently use are part of the muscle memory, but when I'm adding a new command to the repertoire, precisely where the key finger needs to go once the modifying finger has hit command/control/meta isn't kinesthetically obvious at first.

Note that this is from a baseline of touch typing, so I naturally stop double-checking things once I've done them enough. If you don't touch type, do yourself a huge favor and learn. Some people find blank keycaps helpful here, especially if they have many years of whatever ad-hoc system they use to type with.

Some people aesthetically prefer no keycaps as well. Also functionally: it's just easier for them to think about a key geometrically rather than symbolically. I don't think there's a one-for-all answer on this.

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#45

Post by cranium »

Adverblessly wrote: post #31

Here are my personal principals: 1. Don't use too many thumb buttons, especially at odd angles, they just make my thumbs hurt after too much typing. 2. Don't use layers for any frequently used buttons, having to keep a button held for a while frequently just leads to more pain. 3. Function keys are mandatory. They aren't used frequently enough that having them in a "far" location is a problem, but when I do use them…

I found that layer on thumb + cursor keys on home row is really pleasing to use. It's like having a better HJKL working in all programs.

See https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/qmk_firmware/tree/maste...

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#46

Post by samatman »

bradley13 wrote: post #8

I spent a lot of time on this, back in my bored 20's. A super-optimized keyboard layout, which I used for a year. I measured my typing speed on qwerty before the change, and on the optimized keyboard after using it for a year. Yep, you do type faster. In my case, it was 10%. Honestly, it wasn't worth it. There are way too many disadvantages, not least of which is the fact that that only your computer has your weird k…

This problem can be largely avoided, for those of us who use a laptop frequently (most of us, I imagine): just leave the laptop layout standard, or lightly modified. I've remapped all of three keys, as a result I can use a stock keyboard with a smallish amount of mental adjustment.

The split key ortho plugged into my monitor, therefore, can be as weird as I want. It's heavily customized and I can do more with it, faster, easier. I do type about 15% faster flat-out with it, but more importantly, I can send λ with little more effort than `l`. But since the laptop has the default layout, I remain "bilingual", two independent muscle memories can be maintained pretty easily if one regularly uses both.

The ortho does have a QWERTY layout for the alphabetic keys, since I don't see the point in changing that, but I don't expect it would make a difference if it didn't.

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#47

Post by lawn »

samatman wrote: post #43
lawn wrote: post #38

I'll advice against keycap labels and printing a cheat sheet. Relying on them will feel better, but it's a crutch and you'll learn faster if you force yourself to do it the hard way of remembering. And before you mention it, the layout I use is quite complicated, and I still think it's much better to learn without any aid: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2022/09/06/the_current_t-34...

Seems sort of irrelevant if one is already a touch typist. Personally, I find labeled keycaps pleasant for a few reasons: One is that I have a glowy keyboard, which is aesthetically enjoyable to me (or I wouldn't have one), and it wouldn't be as much fun if the LEDs were just shining up through identical dots. Also, I find it useful to re-register my fingers. I added Braille dots to all the alphabetic keys, so I can…

> Seems sort of irrelevant if one is already a touch typist.

My comment was made with the context of learning a new layout (or a new keyboard or learning to touch type).

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#48

Post by samatman »

Adverblessly wrote: post #31

Here are my personal principals: 1. Don't use too many thumb buttons, especially at odd angles, they just make my thumbs hurt after too much typing. 2. Don't use layers for any frequently used buttons, having to keep a button held for a while frequently just leads to more pain. 3. Function keys are mandatory. They aren't used frequently enough that having them in a "far" location is a problem, but when I do use them…

I love thumb clusters. But I have large hands. The great thing about the Cambrian explosion of mechanical keyboards is that people can find a layout which works for them, mentally and physiologically.

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#49

Post by astrodust »

bloopernova wrote: post #7

I would like to see something that records your keystrokes and gives you stats on what you type the most. Then spits out a keyboard arrangement to start from. Not sure how you'd get around it being a huge security risk? Maybe only write totals for keypresses every 30 minutes? Edited to add: Does anyone daily-drive a Keyboardio Model 100? I really liked the concept and participated in the kickstarter, but unfortunatel…

Just look at the wear on your keys. Based on a keyboard's wear pattern you can often tell what someone does for their job, even down to the programming language used or specific apps.

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#50

Post by Adverblessly »

goosedragons wrote: post #41
Adverblessly wrote: post #31

Here are my personal principals: 1. Don't use too many thumb buttons, especially at odd angles, they just make my thumbs hurt after too much typing. 2. Don't use layers for any frequently used buttons, having to keep a button held for a while frequently just leads to more pain. 3. Function keys are mandatory. They aren't used frequently enough that having them in a "far" location is a problem, but when I do use them…

How are you doing layers? I have zero pain problems holding the delete key (on my Kinesis Advantage) to shift into my second layer for things like (,),{,}. It's way less pain then the using a typical keyboard layout. Hell it's easier than actual Shift. I think your other principles are pretty personal. I obviously never use delete. Rarely use function keys or home/end/etc. I use cursor keys a bunch but the Kinesis ha…

> How are you doing layers?

With my thumb, since I'd need the other fingers to reach the actual buttons on the layer (usually). Sadly, this breaks my other principals so it doesn't work well for me. Not sure where you delete key is, but I guess it might work well with a pinky key instead (like I can use ctrl+something), but I don't really have a key like that I'd be willing to give up :)

> I think your other principles are pretty personal.

Very much so! Which is why the first sentence of my comment was "Here are my personal principals", emphasis on "personal" :)

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