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Google lays off its Python team

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Re: Google lays off its Python team

#251
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it does. Pretty much every FAANG, and many smaller ones, have teams for every programming language they consider important. Google has C++, Rust, Python, Java, JavaScript, and others (although I've heard that several of these teams were hard it in this round.) To take a basic example: Google has a team that works inside LLVM and Clang to improve the code it produces for Google's specific workloads. (Often t…

in addition to contributing to upstream python, we * maintained a stable version of python within google, and made sure that everything in the monorepo worked with it. in my time on the team we moved from 2.7 to 3.6, then incrementally to 3.11, each update taking months to over a year because the rule at google is if you check any code in, you are responsible for every single breakage it causes * maintained tools to…

Adding to the wonderful writeup by my now-ex teammate (thanks!):

Several of us were/are/TBD also involved in both long term strategic leadership and maintenance of the open source CPython project itself. That direct feedback line from a major diverse needs user into the project and ecosystem was valuable for the world.

The reason I stayed on this team for 12+ years is as zem said. It was an ideal impactful alignment of people, abilities, priorities, and work life balance. My prior teams at Google... were often not.

For the first half of our Python teams existence, there were only ~5 of us. Many early years were spent paying down internal tech debt accumulated from prior years of neglecting to have a strong Python strategy and letting too many do their own thing. Python was one of the very first languages used widely at Google. It was the last major backend language to get a language team.

Signed, -- the now-ex runtimes TL

Re: Google lays off its Python team

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it’s common. At Google and across America. When Google did its massive 12k person layoff they moved a lot of those roles to places like India. They had another tranche of layoffs that were “delayed exit” to train those Indian employees.

You can call me bigoted or racist, I don't care. The fact is with moving technical roles to India quality plummets. But I can totally see how in some beancounter's narrow mind this makes perfect sense.

That's not bigoted or racist. There are two forces when it comes to pricing labor:

1. The forces that dictate the lowest price.

2. The forces that dictate the highest price.

These are completely orthogonal to each other.

Lowest price is based on cost of living, you can hire the cheapest person as long as you pay them enough for them to keep on eating. That's it. Notably this lower-end is going to have a lot of variance based on location.

Highest price is based on how much value a worker creates for a business, the highest price that you can pay that worker is somewhere that leaves the business with a margin profit. Of course it is in the businesses best interest to increase the margin for themselves, but as talent becomes harder to find, fat margins become less of a necessity and more of a nice-to-have. The job needs to get done or their golden-egg machine will die.

So!

You go to the lowest price at a another country, that's what you get in quality. Execs think that people are replaceable so they believe that the average X is the same here as it is anywhere else, the only difference to them is cost.

So yeah. You are not racist for pointing out that quality suffers due to cost cutting through offshoring. The lower cost-of-living countries (such as India) still have top tier talent, but that talent is priced similarly across the world, they are smart and they price themselves according to the value they bring.

Re: Google lays off its Python team

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can call me bigoted or racist, I don't care. The fact is with moving technical roles to India quality plummets. But I can totally see how in some beancounter's narrow mind this makes perfect sense.

Every company thinks that they're going to hack the system. They think that they'll be the first American company to ever outsource and get the best developers. But all of the best developers are happily working for local companies, and they don't want to have to deal with an American boss.

> all of the best developers ...

... have already left the country.

It's a joke, but not really.

Re: Google lays off its Python team

#254
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in addition to contributing to upstream python, we * maintained a stable version of python within google, and made sure that everything in the monorepo worked with it. in my time on the team we moved from 2.7 to 3.6, then incrementally to 3.11, each update taking months to over a year because the rule at google is if you check any code in, you are responsible for every single breakage it causes * maintained tools to…

Adding to the wonderful writeup by my now-ex teammate (thanks!): Several of us were/are/TBD also involved in both long term strategic leadership and maintenance of the open source CPython project itself. That direct feedback line from a major diverse needs user into the project and ecosystem was valuable for the world. The reason I stayed on this team for 12+ years is as zem said. It was an ideal impactful alignment…

yes, i definitely should have said more about the cpython leadership work! i was responding to a comment that had already mentioned upstream contributions so i didn't think to highlight it more, but it was a huge contribution to both google and to cpython at large.

Re: Google lays off its Python team

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then why not MAAANG?. Much better acronym, but then I just say big N.

Can’t we just stick with FANG? Sure, the acronym doesn’t mean anything anymore, but at least everyone knows what it means.

The N stands for Microsoft

Re: Google lays off its Python team

#257
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it does. Pretty much every FAANG, and many smaller ones, have teams for every programming language they consider important. Google has C++, Rust, Python, Java, JavaScript, and others (although I've heard that several of these teams were hard it in this round.) To take a basic example: Google has a team that works inside LLVM and Clang to improve the code it produces for Google's specific workloads. (Often t…

in addition to contributing to upstream python, we * maintained a stable version of python within google, and made sure that everything in the monorepo worked with it. in my time on the team we moved from 2.7 to 3.6, then incrementally to 3.11, each update taking months to over a year because the rule at google is if you check any code in, you are responsible for every single breakage it causes * maintained tools to…

Any guess how many SWE-yrs are now going to be spent migrating existing Python projects away from Python, now that Python seems to be unsupported at Google going forward?

Re: Google lays off its Python team

#258
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to weigh in about what you reckon happened? Surely the company didn't suddenly lose its need of the Python ecosystem?

i reckon we simply got offshored, since they're now building a whole new python team in munich, though i don't know whether for cost reasons or to expand the languages presence in the munich office or both.

Why would they lay off the existing team first, rather than spin up the new team, have the old team train the new team, and give old team members a chance to move countries if they wanted?

Re: Google lays off its Python team

#260
post #174
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”Slightly cheaper”? What are the actual numbers we are talking about regarding yearly comp?

TC diffs of 230k vs 350k is what i've seen, for a mid-career SRE

It's still not a lot considering that you get the same benefit from hiring in LCOL in the USA
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