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Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

arstechnica.com

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Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#81

Post by reitzensteinm »

grecy wrote: post #67
FireBeyond wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like showing a video of an iPhone taking ages to load a web page or a very grainy photo that it took LOL. The disclaimer "Sequences Shortened" on ads came about because of other manufacturer complaints to the FTC about very early iPhone ads very much editing sequences to make the iPhone look faster than it was. > FSD has come a LONG way in 5 years. And has an even longer way to go. Usable means things like dri…

Why are you changing the topic and moving the goal posts?

Your first comment in this thread moved the goal posts from 2014 to 2018.

Now you say we aren't allowed to move goal posts? That's, like, meta goal post moving, man.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#82

Post by grecy »

reitzensteinm wrote: post #81
grecy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you changing the topic and moving the goal posts?

Your first comment in this thread moved the goal posts from 2014 to 2018. Now you say we aren't allowed to move goal posts? That's, like, meta goal post moving, man.

Where did I say anything about 2014?

I was saying that comparing a product from 2018 to what is available today is dishonest.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#84

Post by tgma »

Veserv wrote: post #49
tgma wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The aspirational claims are not about Autopilot, but FSD (and I agree that having people pay for FSD in 2015 is borderline fraudulent. It is a consumer protection matter, not a safety matter.) Again, the statements to California DMV or SEC or Congress is one thing. Whether the owner is confused by the abilities of their vehicle post purchase and driving for a week is a distinct matter. > Those drivers are "it's okay…

They are objectively, literally fatally confused as to the abilities of their vehicles. Tesla's systems, or any other ADAS for that matter, can not be safely used without a fully attentive driver and Tesla's system in particular further demands that you must keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times. Deliberately and intentionally operating such a system without your full attention because you think it will…

> They are objectively, literally fatally confused as to the abilities of their vehicles.

Citation needed.

> Deliberately and intentionally operating such a system without your full attention because you think it will safely drive you without your attention is like shoving your hand into a spinning saw blade.

False. Objectively and manifestly so. Regardless of it being a good idea or not, one hurts you with a small probability, one almost certainly.

> For a spinning saw blade, they miscalculate the risk and overestimate the safety mechanism, but they are not confused about that fact that inserting their hand into a spinning saw blade is a very bad idea.

Where is the data that attributes the behavior to risk miscalculation, not the temptation of doing it despite the risk? People do stupid things all the time despite the risks. They skydive and bungie jump FFS.

> If Tesla ADAS operators only overestimated their attention then it would be comparable to a spinning saw blade, useful but dangerous. However, Tesla marketing aggressively misrepresents the capabilities of their systems and the Tesla ADAS operators routinely believe the marketing that it can safely drive without their attention; they believe you should insert your hand into a spinning saw blade and many people have literally died as a result. That is textbook fatal confusion about the abilities of their vehicles.

I cannot take this rant seriously; let's say we take it as true: you could substitute Tesla driving to driving any vehicle (which can be fatal) and keep the argument unchanged. Tesla has cited numbers on safety. I'd rather have a quantifiable argument about pros and cons rather than analogies comparing to saw blades.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#85

Post by Veserv »

tgma wrote: post #84
Veserv wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are objectively, literally fatally confused as to the abilities of their vehicles. Tesla's systems, or any other ADAS for that matter, can not be safely used without a fully attentive driver and Tesla's system in particular further demands that you must keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times. Deliberately and intentionally operating such a system without your full attention because you think it will…

> They are objectively, literally fatally confused as to the abilities of their vehicles. Citation needed. > Deliberately and intentionally operating such a system without your full attention because you think it will safely drive you without your attention is like shoving your hand into a spinning saw blade. False. Objectively and manifestly so. Regardless of it being a good idea or not, one hurts you with a small p…

The analogy was provided to help illustrate the difference between complacency and confusion.

You can not substitute driving any vehicle into the analogy unchanged because in normal vehicles the overwhelming majority of vehicle operators do not believe the vehicle can be operated safely without attention. Some may do so anyways, but the overwhelming majority of those cases are because they believe they are paying an adequate amount of attention, not because they believe no attention is needed. That is an example of complacency. If they wrongly believe that no attention is needed, then that is confusion.

It is okay if you misunderstood as people who have no experience with safety-critical engineering are usually unfamiliar with the distinction, but you should reflect on it until you understand as it is hard to provide meaningful input to a conversation until you understand the basics. Good luck with your learning.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#86

Post by tgma »

Veserv wrote: post #85
tgma wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are objectively, literally fatally confused as to the abilities of their vehicles. Citation needed. > Deliberately and intentionally operating such a system without your full attention because you think it will safely drive you without your attention is like shoving your hand into a spinning saw blade. False. Objectively and manifestly so. Regardless of it being a good idea or not, one hurts you with a small p…

The analogy was provided to help illustrate the difference between complacency and confusion. You can not substitute driving any vehicle into the analogy unchanged because in normal vehicles the overwhelming majority of vehicle operators do not believe the vehicle can be operated safely without attention. Some may do so anyways, but the overwhelming majority of those cases are because they believe they are paying an…

Tha analogy was far off and exaggerated to the point that it was meaningless. At this point you're continuously making up things using phrases like "overwhelming majority". Unless you are able to substiate your claims with something other than your feelings and point to data I don't think continuing this discussion is productive. I'm outta here.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#87

Post by Uzza »

osrec wrote: post #20
psunavy03 wrote: post #8

At some point, I just don't get how a lot of this is Tesla's problem. I'll buy that they should have called it something other than "Autopilot" and "Full Self Driving." But ultimately if it's in the manual saying "this is not fully automated and you must pay attention to the road," it should be on the driver to be held liable for abusing the system. Sure, go after Tesla if the system endangers people via spurious inp…

I remember back in 2013 when I first drove a Tesla, they were really pushing the self driving features at my local dealership. I can't help but feel like they were overselling their capabilities, and their staff could well have made a gullible person believe the car really does drive itself perfectly.

Autopilot did not even exist as a public feature in 2013. It was first mentioned as being in development then, but the cars didn't even have any hardware for it until September 2014.

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#88

Post by bottlepalm »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #72
kurthr wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree it does great on freeways, but not in urban situations where there are tight corners and lots of parked cars, or rural areas with twisty roads and farm equipment. I'd turn it off in construction areas too.

It straight up useless in urban areas. Even some country roads that are too windy/hilly it will become more of a babysit than yourself. I agree on highway. Easily 95% use, likely more.

What are you talking about? It works amazing off highway. I use it all day long. Have you used v12?

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#89

Post by dzhiurgis »

bottlepalm wrote: post #88
dzhiurgis wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It straight up useless in urban areas. Even some country roads that are too windy/hilly it will become more of a babysit than yourself. I agree on highway. Easily 95% use, likely more.

What are you talking about? It works amazing off highway. I use it all day long. Have you used v12?

We're talking Autopilot, not FSD

Re: Tesla's 2M car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny

#90

Post by bottlepalm »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #89
bottlepalm wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? It works amazing off highway. I use it all day long. Have you used v12?

We're talking Autopilot, not FSD

I'm the OP, and I'm talking about FSD. Sorry if that wasn't implied when I said I drive with it on 95% of the time. On all road types. It does great in construction areas as well.
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