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We have 4 days to contest KYC being required by internet services

federalregister.gov

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Re: We have 4 days to contest KYC being required by internet services

#271

Post by refulgentis »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #270
refulgentis wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

KYC stands for Know Your Customer, and is a core regulation in banking. So we can pivot off that and work through what a bank does to verify your identity. I signed up for a Mercury bank account a few months back for my Delaware corporation without talking to anyone, so I'll use that as a template. I can't remember the exact steps, but tl;dr submit a passport photo / driver's license photo and a photo I take in the a…

You seem to be conceding the point that they would be forced to invade the privacy of their US customers in addition to just foreign ones.

True, I guess I wouldn't call it invading privacy, that's sounds a bit overwrought to me. Then banks invade my privacy, the DMV invades my privacy, etc. There's always tradeoffs, I respect people's concern about them, and I wish there was a gentler to say it.

Re: We have 4 days to contest KYC being required by internet services

#272

Post by outop »

logifail wrote: post #230
refulgentis wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strawman. It won't be a checkbox, of course...

> That's a strawman [..] OK, I'll bite. How exactly are [US] domestic users of services supposed to prove they don't need to prove their identity? EDIT: it reminds me of the Common Travel Area (between Ireland and of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland), which has some glorious inconsistencies. For instance that nationals of Ireland and the UK travelling between those two countries do not need a…

Have you travelled between the UK and Ireland? You most definitely do not need a passport and do not need "equivalent ID". You can travel (by boat) with a student card, driving license, photographic travel pass (ie over-60s pass, young person rail pass), or photographic id from your work.

The check is very much "don't stop walking but hold your ID-looking thing in your hand so a nonchalant man can glance at it". You would attract very little attention with someone else's UK or Irish driving license, a bit more if you decided to test the waters with a weird form of ID.

Children can travel with a birth certificate (no photo).

You need more than this to get on an aeroplane, but that also applies to domestic flights in the UK.

If you get the boat and show eg. a Romanian student card, they might ask you where your passport is, somewhat reasonably since you would have needed it to travel to the UK or to Ireland. They would accept an ID card probably and might let you in with legit looking non-government ID.

That's the sea border. You can cross the land border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland without any form of ID at all, government-issued, photographic or otherwise. Lots of people do it every day by car or bus and it would not remotely occur to them to take ID with them.

So the Romanian student would have no problem travelling between London and Dublin without showing anything since they could get a boat Glasgow- Belfast and then get a bus to Dublin.

If this was your best example of governments lying and changing the rules, it's not a very good one (and is also kind of offensive to Irish and British people).

Re: We have 4 days to contest KYC being required by internet services

#273

Post by AnthonyMouse »

codedokode wrote: post #147
oshout wrote: post #21

Skimming through the article, it seems like the extent of this is to require IAAS (Infrastructure) providers to verify the identity of those who are using their services to train AI. It's an attempt to stymie sanctioned or malicious actors, from training AI and especially from hopping between services or using aliases to continue training on their model. It seems a bit benign and I don't understand the parallels othe…

This won't work. Foreign nations have enough skill and resources to pass KYC as a citizen (steal someone's documents, pay a homeless for verification etc). And as I understand, US doesn't have a central citizen database so it is difficult to verify a document.

That isn't even the first reason it won't work.

Computing is a global commodity. There are providers in other countries. They would just use one of those.

Re: We have 4 days to contest KYC being required by internet services

#274

Post by AnthonyMouse »

spiralpolitik wrote: post #234
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems a bit benign This seems, to me, an utterly malignant attack on anonymity, which is a protected constitutional right. It's the idea that every internet packet needs to be tied back to some verified identity. We're in frog-boiling territory with this garbage.

There is no absolute right to anonymity in the US constitution. (The courts have "recognized relatively strong First Amendment presumptions on behalf of purveyors of anonymous speech, especially for those that are statements of opinions rather than obvious falsehoods, while recognizing that government sometimes has the right to identify such speakers when they have used their platforms to harass, engage in slander or…

How is one supposed to exercise their right to anonymously express political opinions if anonymity is prohibited by law?

Re: We have 4 days to contest KYC being required by internet services

#275

Post by chmod600 »

throwway120385 wrote: post #239
chmod600 wrote: post #220

Idea: let's make it so all emergency powers have to be re-authorized every week by Congress at midnight on Friday with a 90% quorum of physically-present representatives. If "emergency" action is needed because Congress is too slow, then let's make sure they are working through the process to create real law. Or if they aren't, I guess it wasn't an emergency, and there's no reason for administrative law to "fill in"…

Great! I'm looking forward to seeing this requirement applied to also dissolve the judicial branch entirely so that Congress is entirely responsible for both enforcment and adjudication of the law. Let's work together to end separation of powers.

You seem to be suggesting that Congress making law is intruding on the power of an agency to make Administrative law? The latter is not (supposed to be) an actual branch of government. Congress has full power to rewrite all the administrative law as they see fit.

Re: We have 4 days to contest KYC being required by internet services

#276

Post by krapp »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #274
spiralpolitik wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no absolute right to anonymity in the US constitution. (The courts have "recognized relatively strong First Amendment presumptions on behalf of purveyors of anonymous speech, especially for those that are statements of opinions rather than obvious falsehoods, while recognizing that government sometimes has the right to identify such speakers when they have used their platforms to harass, engage in slander or…

How is one supposed to exercise their right to anonymously express political opinions if anonymity is prohibited by law?

There is no right to anonymously express political opinions.

There is a right to express political opinions, but anonymity is a privilege, not a right.

Re: We have 4 days to contest KYC being required by internet services

#277

Post by logifail »

outop wrote: post #272
logifail wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a strawman [..] OK, I'll bite. How exactly are [US] domestic users of services supposed to prove they don't need to prove their identity? EDIT: it reminds me of the Common Travel Area (between Ireland and of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland), which has some glorious inconsistencies. For instance that nationals of Ireland and the UK travelling between those two countries do not need a…

Have you travelled between the UK and Ireland? You most definitely do not need a passport and do not need "equivalent ID". You can travel (by boat) with a student card, driving license, photographic travel pass (ie over-60s pass, young person rail pass), or photographic id from your work. The check is very much "don't stop walking but hold your ID-looking thing in your hand so a nonchalant man can glance at it". You…

> You need more than this to get on an aeroplane, but that also applies to domestic flights in the UK.

Can you clarify what you mean by "more than this"?

I've travelled on many domestic flights within the UK, and ID is not routinely checked.

> If this was your best example of governments lying and changing the rules

Ouch.

The common travel area has its origins way back in 1923, the rules are clear, no-one is lying.

It's just that it's hard to prove you are entitled to its benefits without having an ID document with you that - if you're entitled - it says you don't have to have with you...

Re: We have 4 days to contest KYC being required by internet services

#278

Post by AnthonyMouse »

refulgentis wrote: post #271
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be conceding the point that they would be forced to invade the privacy of their US customers in addition to just foreign ones.

True, I guess I wouldn't call it invading privacy, that's sounds a bit overwrought to me. Then banks invade my privacy, the DMV invades my privacy, etc. There's always tradeoffs, I respect people's concern about them, and I wish there was a gentler to say it.

> Then banks invade my privacy, the DMV invades my privacy, etc.

That is a reasonable and factually accurate statement.

> There's always tradeoffs, I respect people's concern about them, and I wish there was a gentler to say it.

The tradeoff here is astonishingly bad. Studies have shown that AML/KYC have an effectiveness of less than a fraction of one percent. They continue to proliferate because their largest costs fall on the users rather than the companies, so they're the thing that large corporations suggest as a "solution" when they're being pressured to do something. Because people have the perception that it will do some good, even though that perception is inaccurate.

In reality what they do is provide a means to satisfy "something must be done" in a way that dumps the costs on marginalized users instead of politicians and corporations.

Re: We have 4 days to contest KYC being required by internet services

#279

Post by AnthonyMouse »

krapp wrote: post #276
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is one supposed to exercise their right to anonymously express political opinions if anonymity is prohibited by law?

There is no right to anonymously express political opinions. There is a right to express political opinions, but anonymity is a privilege, not a right.

Then how do you explain these?

https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/anony...

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