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The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

theguardian.com

301–310 of 311 posts

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s really the non-employee shareholders that take the value, so instead of comparing with CEO and management, you should instead be asking: “How to transfer ownership of all publicly traded shares such that they are owned solely by the employees and not non-employee investors” CEOs and management are simply there to prevent the above from happening, which is why they are paid by the board so much. The boards are th…

> not non-employee investors I must be thick, but I fail to understand how shareholders are "investors" of a publicly traded company? Yes, at some point, the company went to the market, and large sums of cash were exchanged for company shares, with the promise of a future return of part of the profit on that share. So yes, that moment could be seen as an investment. But from that point onward, holding a share of a tr…

IPO creates the “public market investment vehicle” by liquidating the assets of the private equity holders onto retail investors.

In single share class companies then, the entirety of the “value” from a financial perspective is held in stocks and corporate bonds. Whomever owns these, has voting and control rights in a way that non-voting equity holders do not.

Notably almost no public companies give voting shares to employees- I’m sure there are examples but incredibly rare.

Shareholders benefit materially from the labor of the company by holding the asset that (theoretically) accretes value with no actual labor inputs.

That means that anyone doing labor is paying the shareholders from their paycheck every month.

Why is it like this, because the contracts people sign and the egregious power disparity makes it such that capital, the voting share holders, have ALL of the value that they can turn trade or liquidate or whatever because they gave money for shares and more shares means more power in the company. The board ultimately encourages this because they are only interested in capital returns and stock price.

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't understand what socialism and coops are, nor do you understand the nuances and debates that leftists have. See how easy it is to make assertions? > you are just somebody who argues on the internet Says, the guy arguing on the internet lol. > a natural contrarian who thinks they are right about everything, while being totally wrong Says the natural contrarian who thinks they are right about everything, while…

goodness gracious lmfao

lol

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worker co-ops are quite concretely socialist in the sense that the workers control their means of production. Of course when embedded in largely capitalist economy, e.g. banks do still have often de-facto control over them.

> Worker co-ops are quite concretely socialist Or you could say that they are co-owner of their means of production. So, as business owners, are they actually the ultimate capitalists in disguise? :-)

Business owner who doesn't have employees is not really a capitalist, but a self-employed worker. At least if they do some practical labor instead of e.g. investing.

In general, self-employment is quite a different thing from owning of means of production that other people work.

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like my credit union. I call and someone picks up the phone pretty quickly and competently. I got in as a minor, so I paid $5 for my startup share. (Adults are $25). They’ve been giving me a $5 dividend share every year for a few decades. And charge me $0/month for a pretty full-service bank experience (not common at banks in Canada). They’re on a North American network of ATMs (Exchange & Accel) so I have pre…

Which one?

Would rather not specify, but one of the bigger ones in Southern Ontario.

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s really the non-employee shareholders that take the value, so instead of comparing with CEO and management, you should instead be asking: “How to transfer ownership of all publicly traded shares such that they are owned solely by the employees and not non-employee investors” CEOs and management are simply there to prevent the above from happening, which is why they are paid by the board so much. The boards are th…

> not non-employee investors I must be thick, but I fail to understand how shareholders are "investors" of a publicly traded company? Yes, at some point, the company went to the market, and large sums of cash were exchanged for company shares, with the promise of a future return of part of the profit on that share. So yes, that moment could be seen as an investment. But from that point onward, holding a share of a tr…

Totally valid question I struggled with for years.

Simply yes, the most of the investment happens when shares are issued - notably the IPO. However companies can issue new shares, or buy back/retire shares and reissue at a future date. The value from people holding shares maintains the price for which companies can cash in at a future date. So demand for shares on the market is sort of a store of value for companies.

Your question on reinvestment: a company is under no obligation to return profits to shareholders and can reinvest as much of their profit as they please. Amazon did this for years. Of course there are practical limits to this as board members often are representatives of shareholder interests. When a company no longer can make new credible investments, they are likely to return excess profits to shareholders. Different companies have different mandates from shareholders and different levels of scrutiny for what counts as credible reinvestment.

Now in practice there is the added layer of shares representing the interests of the make up of the firm. Board seats often are shareholders, creditors give preference to firms with valuable shares, Ceos are often paid in shares as sometimes employees at many firms.

Ultimately, there is no legal claim to profits from shareholders, nor is there legal claim to control. (Look at Google's multi class share obfuscating control). However giving profit and control helps stoke share price which is the store of value for firms as well, helps maintain access to credit/ financial strength, and represents the interests of the firm itself (via its board, creditors, CEO, employees etc.)

TLDR: companies issue /reissue new shares to finance their business. Maintaining share price stores value for business (and new demand builds that value)

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C-suite compensation, especially stock-based, is often in part to ensure management loyalty to shareholders vs other things. Worker board membership means management once again has competing loyalties, but now de jure . That means it is not worth it to the share holders to pay the extra "ransom compensation", in addition to workers probably outright being against it. I would thus expect C-suite compensation to go dow…

"ensure management loyalty to shareholders" Everyone's pay is to keep them, isn't it? Nobody is loyal beyond being paid. Do CEO's really provide so much 'extra' benefit to justify the premium? Is their loyalty in particular worth paying so much for? I'm just not seeing how 'ransom' is needed. Isn't growing a healthy business supposed to be the goal for CEO and Board? And if employee owned, it is same. The only reason…

The ways the stock price influences a business that already has gone public are subtle and not to be taken for granted

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the workers owning the means of production, in what way is that not socialist?

It is. People don’t realize socialism isn’t mutually exclusive with capitalism.

Maybe more precise to say "not mutually exclusive with free market exchange", 'capitalism' (as a socialist would define it) is primarily an ownership arrangement.

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#309
> “If I’d had to compete in the open job market against all the youngsters coming out of university, I’m not sure I’d have ever found another job.”

So this is the reason Spain has the highest youth unemployment rate in europe?

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it suggests non-capitalist business models can be more successful than generally imagined.

Co-ops are a capitalist business model.

You say that like its a bad thing...
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