You are what you read, even if you don't always remember it • Hacker News Board

Re: You are what you read, even if you don't always remember it

#111

Post by verisimi » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 6:06 AM UTC

pjerem wrote: post #104

nyokodo wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free will hasn’t been proven. Free will is something that we experience which provides extremely compelling evidence that it is true. Things don't have to be empirically proven in order to be true, if that were the case then empiricism itself would fail the test as it has never been established to be true empirically.

Existence of mental illness or troubles makes me doubt that. What is free will when you are suffering from pathological procrastination, depression or addiction ? If you accept the fact that, like in addictions, your brain chemistry makes you smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol even when you know you’ll die from it and know it makes you miserable then how can you be convinced that you really control your normal behavio…

Could depression, or other mental illnesses, be the outcome of one's bad decisions (or failure to make decisions)?

Re: You are what you read, even if you don't always remember it

#112

Post by nyokodo » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 6:07 AM UTC

nikkwong wrote: post #73

nyokodo wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free will hasn’t been proven. Free will is something that we experience which provides extremely compelling evidence that it is true. Things don't have to be empirically proven in order to be true, if that were the case then empiricism itself would fail the test as it has never been established to be true empirically.

How do you know you experience it beyond a reasonable doubt? Thoughts and intentions just seemingly appear in consciousness, without any explanation as to how they arose. Feelings are like this too; we don’t determine how we feel, we are simply served them. When experiencing a negative emotion, some people seem to believe they can ‘free will’ their way out of it by thinking positively or something there over, but tha…

> How do you know you experience it beyond a reasonable doubt?

I have no reason to doubt my common sense experience.

> we don’t determine how we feel, we are simply served it.

No definition of free will that I have encountered considers it an absolute freedom from any form of determinism. We’re obviously influenced by our nature and external influences. For instance my emotional predispositions are largely determined and my thoughts are not entirely under my control but I do have scope to shape both my emotions and my thoughts over time by what I choose to focus on. I can choose to do what is necessary to change my behavior and to treat people differently than what comes naturally. I know all of this because I have done it, I have experienced it. No materialist philosophy of mind has produced any compelling evidence to contradict my experience of free will in this capacity.

Re: You are what you read, even if you don't always remember it

#113

Post by hi-v-rocknroll » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 6:07 AM UTC

My biological father once claimed he was "totally immune" to advertising; I nearly fell over dead that instant with laughter.

Roger Ailes, Edward Bernays, and William Randolph Hearst applied similar principles, leaving lasting influences on the course of American history: one bent a hundred-fifty million Americans towards a retreaded version of the Nixon ideology, one made cigarettes appeal to women and had democracies overthrown for fruit companies, and the latter decided how to spin the news, became a Nazi, and nearly convinced America fascism was a "good idea".

I don't see how any human alive, unless they lived under a rock, can reasonably trace the origin of any of their beliefs or preferences. So, I must conclude beliefs, preferences, and ideologies are more or less arbitrary because most people don't spend metacognition effort on analyzing their formation or their change.

Re: You are what you read, even if you don't always remember it

#114

Post by pjerem » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 6:13 AM UTC

piloto_ciego wrote: post #85

ixsploit wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you experiencing free will? You have no idea what your next thought will be, nor can you control it. You have the opinion that you have free will, but that doesn't mean it's true.

You can’t choose what you will think about? How do you get through the day? Are you just frequently blindsided by random non-sequiturs that derail you for hours? I routinely chose things to think about or things to concentrate on. It’s not like all thoughts leap into my mind fully formed either. Hell, I edited this message before hitting reply.

Choosing is not free will.

You choose based on your past experience. If you know doing A is better than B, you didn’t choose A, it’s just that your brain already knows that A is the best option based on past experience or knowledge or beliefs.

Even if you choose the seemingly "worst" option B, it’s just that you know that new experiences can be rewarding so your brain is ok to try it.

And there is the extreme example : given you are in good mental health, you are totally, physically, unable to chose to kill someone (or even yourself) without a very important reason (to you).

Also, if the absence of free will at biological levels don’t make the concept useless at the society level. Accepting that environment, culture, knowledge and society have such an influence on us just shows the importance of shaping a good society.

Accepting absence of free will at a biological level can just makes us more empathetic towards others.

It doesn’t means society have to accept any wrong behavior from humans but rather something way more positive : society is ultimately responsible for individuals behaviors and have the power to change them for the benefit of everyone.

Re: You are what you read, even if you don't always remember it

#115

Post by blackoil » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 6:15 AM UTC

somenameforme wrote: post #91

nlitened wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving a knowledge of a language is a _huge_ external input, intertwined with culture and life experience of the language teacher. And the smaller the external input we give to this group of toddler, the more they will resemble a violent pack of chimps in the end. Unlikely to develop their own values and perspectives.

Well, again - I think the isolated tribes are a good example. Two different examples are the Sentinelese and the Nukak. The former are actively hostile and violent to any outsiders, with very few exceptions, while the Nukak were completely peaceful and receptive since their first contact. These isolated tribes are largely a mirror into the past that give us a view of what humanity, in all of its diverse forms, might…

These tribes aren't isolated in true. Over 1000s of years, they have interacted with world outside and formed a generational wisdom and values. If 100 years back British/French came and enslaved some members, the behavior is expected.

Re: You are what you read, even if you don't always remember it

#116

Post by verisimi » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 6:15 AM UTC

sublinear wrote: post #39

y04nn wrote: post #25

Don't forget that you are the result of all the past sensory interactions that you experienced in your whole life, people you interacted with, books you read, advertisements, songs, news headlines, etc. Even if you think you don't remember them, at one point in your life it was processed by your brain and may have changed some posterior decisions you made, thus making you what you are now. Since I realized this, I am…

I don't think the blog post necessarily supports this view. You still have your free will. Your past experiences also teach you what to ignore. You are free to do that to my comment. :)

Lots of answers about free will.

My criticism is that they all seem to make the same error, in treating the existence of free will as some sort of binary decision.

My view is that the more one's model is coherent with the underlying reality, the more options are available to the individual. The greater the selection, the more free will you have.

Eg, if someone pulls a gun on you, you may think you have no free will. However, if you have a gun of your own, you have a different set of options. Similarly, if you are a trained martial artist or hostage negotiator, you will evaluate your options differently - you have more options.

Put simply one doesn't know what one doesn't know. Most likely this will occur in the case where one is certain of one's 'knowledge' of something that is actually false, ie one is operating within a lie/fantasy and has been tricked. Here, one will have a constrained set of options and therefore less free will.

Re: You are what you read, even if you don't always remember it

#117

Post by Ekaros » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 6:16 AM UTC

shrubby wrote: post #110

somenameforme wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd challenge this with a thought experiment. Imagine we put a group of toddlers on an island and somehow give them knowledge of language (and enough sustenance to survive), but absolutely 0 external input otherwise. These people, as they grow, would gradually develop their own views, values, and perspectives. Do the exact same thing on another island and you'd get entirely different results! One can see this very th…

The books I've read have a say in this. Rutger Bregman concluded in his Humankind - a Hopeful History that deep down human is pretty decent. So I'm thinking the turnout would be rather similar in different communities. I was kinda impressed with Bergman once the book came out so I took nine copies to Finnish MP's to share. Unfortunately they were not too interested in the humane message the book told

I would agree that humans are pretty decent in tiny communities. Scaling beyond that they are absolutely unquestionably horrific monsters. Without any doubt. And those communities are not ready to punish their own community for those horrific deeds they comitted.

Re: You are what you read, even if you don't always remember it

#118

Post by vasco » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 6:16 AM UTC

huygens6363 wrote: post #98

piloto_ciego wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Diogenes answer would be to walk across the room and slap you: “if I didn’t chose to do it you cannot be angry at me.” That’s tongue and cheek sure, but the point I feel stands. Free will is certainly constrained, and our material and biological conditions do matter - there’s no amount I can will to make myself fly, but they are not necessarily as rigid of constraints as many would have you believe. We can overcom…

I’m not sure what the point is? Why can’t I be angry? Surely you must see anger is and never will be rational (and also not free). My anger at your slapping is as much determined as your slapping. I see no problem. Free will arguments usually refer to these “justice requires freedom”-like arguments and I feel that’s not the case at all. You can punish, you can feel anger. It’s all included. You cannot separate reacti…

There's free will in the sense that the system is so chaotic and complex that it's impossible to predict for us now at current technology levels, maybe never possible to predict, but I don't see anything in science that would allow free will to be a thing. We're complex automata in the end.

Re: You are what you read, even if you don't always remember it

#119

Post by jononor » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 6:19 AM UTC

verisimi wrote: post #111

pjerem wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Existence of mental illness or troubles makes me doubt that. What is free will when you are suffering from pathological procrastination, depression or addiction ? If you accept the fact that, like in addictions, your brain chemistry makes you smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol even when you know you’ll die from it and know it makes you miserable then how can you be convinced that you really control your normal behavio…

Could depression, or other mental illnesses, be the outcome of one's bad decisions (or failure to make decisions)?

Possible in some circumstances. But also possible that they are the result of other peoples actions (example: emotionally abusive parents or partner)

Re: You are what you read, even if you don't always remember it

#120

Post by vasco » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 6:19 AM UTC

verisimi wrote: post #111

pjerem wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Existence of mental illness or troubles makes me doubt that. What is free will when you are suffering from pathological procrastination, depression or addiction ? If you accept the fact that, like in addictions, your brain chemistry makes you smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol even when you know you’ll die from it and know it makes you miserable then how can you be convinced that you really control your normal behavio…

Could depression, or other mental illnesses, be the outcome of one's bad decisions (or failure to make decisions)?

> i feel like it adds a lot of shaming and suffering to people who struggle to modify their behavior

You just moved the shaming from "look they are lazy and don't move from the couch" to "they are lazy because they made bad decisions"