Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest • Hacker News Board

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#661

Post by insane_dreamer » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:08 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #617

benced wrote: post #615

The WTO allows China to ban American social networks - which would otherwise be required to be allowed under its general principle of parity - because of its "public morals" exception ( https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/repertory_e/g4_... ). I personally don't think that exception should exist and I'm OK banning it solely on trade parity grounds.

China doesn't actually ban American social networks, not officially at least. They just don't work for some reason due to technical issues. China has never said "we ban Facebook and Google", you just wake up one day and they aren't working anymore.

They could operate there if they submitted themselves to Chinese government censorship (aka "local laws"). Google pulled out because it refused to. Facebook really wanted to (Zuck even made a trip there to talk to Chinese officials) but ultimately decided (correctly) that doing so would greatly hurt it in the US/Europe. Same for Twitter (pre-Elon).

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#662

Post by zappb » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:09 AM UTC

partiallypro wrote: post #427

returningfory2 wrote: post #38

The work "ban" is in scare quotes for a reason. The law doesn't ban TikTok. Rather, it bans TikTok from having Chinese owners. If the law stands, the end result will likely be that TikTok will be sold to US owners, rather than TikTok going away. It's surprising to me that this this pretty significant distinction has been glossed over both in media reporting and in general comments here on HN. To be clear, I'm not sup…

If I forced you to sell your home and said you couldn't live there anymore, and if you refused to move, we would tear your house down. Would you then say that I am banning you from living in your home? Kinda feels like a ban, even though it's just a forced sell.

That’s similar to eminent domain, a right granted to the government in the constitution.

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#663

Post by robot_no_421 » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:09 AM UTC

bdd8f1df777b wrote: post #658

benced wrote: post #615

The WTO allows China to ban American social networks - which would otherwise be required to be allowed under its general principle of parity - because of its "public morals" exception ( https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/repertory_e/g4_... ). I personally don't think that exception should exist and I'm OK banning it solely on trade parity grounds.

The US bans TikTok citing the same reasons China bans foreign social media, to avoid influence from foreign adversaries (people below says that China never official bans it, but China is inconsistent on that). It is only fair from a business perspective, but it also means that China's ideology wins over American in the end. The China's own social media is full of posts ridiculing people like me who have believed in t…

This is a really poor argument. You are equating banning one social media app with the GFW, which is obviously a huge hyperbole which has nothing to do with reality. The Great Firewall operates by checking transmission control protocol (TCP) packets for keywords or sensitive words. That is a violation of freedom of thought at the infrastructure level. As an American, you are still free to visit Chinese hosted websites and drink whatever propaganda you want. You just can't use TikTok to find it anymore.

Plus, freedom of speech is about protecting American Citizens from being censored by American Government. Banning an ungovernable, foreign owned business does not stop you from freely expressing yourself on the internet.

Your education was not a lie, but you should still get a refund on your failed education. You clearly did not learn to think critically.

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#664

Post by insane_dreamer » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:10 AM UTC

hi-v-rocknroll wrote: post #622

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn't actually ban American social networks, not officially at least. They just don't work for some reason due to technical issues. China has never said "we ban Facebook and Google", you just wake up one day and they aren't working anymore.

Perhaps the GFOC must officially support an app via allowlisting, so that it's banned unless it's allowed by inaction, which is effectively the same thing. Most/all apps aren't banned outright, but they require VPNs to access. I wonder: Are there any Western apps which Chinese citizens would lose social credit or are officially prohibited from using?

> I wonder: Are there any Western apps which Chinese citizens would lose social credit or are officially prohibited from using?

That's not how it works. The apps are not officially banned, they are just unavailable or don't work. If they're not on the China iOS store (separate than US) then you can't install them, and if you went abroad and managed to install them, they just can't connect to the IG or whatever servers once you're back in China. Same for Android.

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#665

Post by ClumsyPilot » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:11 AM UTC

alcoholic_byte wrote: post #631

georgeecollins wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A US company would never be allowed to own any kind of social media company in China. You can't own a broadcast station in the US as a non-US citizen. Rupert Murdoch had to become a US citizen to buy Fox. I don't know if I agree with this but you can't say there is no precedent for it in the US or in China.

I think, also with respect to the comments to this comment, we need to appreciate the minute nature of this scenario and statement. Journalists and your everyone else enjoys free speech, it must not be curtailed, neither must it be fostered. While companies as a disembodied judicial entity cannot have speech in the same sense as people of flesh and blood, they can, simply based on their properties, act as an amplifie…

> China and Russia only differ in the choice of their tooling, approach and starting positions

This is deeply, deeply wrong - China and Russia are natural opponents, they are two autocracies that deeply distrust each other and do not understand each other’s culture. They will never be like USA and UK.

The alignment between then, is because they both face pressure from USA. It’s not natural and is a huge failure of US foreign policy.

Russia emulates Europe, it produces weapons using German machines, and bottles vodka on Italian production lines. Buying Chinese equipment gets local governors in trouble. They are happy selling natural resources and have no real desire to compete with US in iPhone production or car market. The main friction is around territory. They are kinda like brexiteers - they don’t really have their own vision of the future outside of a narrow. Specific issue.

China is totally different, they have a vision that is very different - it is not ‘be like the west but better’ - it’s be their own thing. they are getting off oil and plan to compete in high-tech industries. That’s not to say they are better, but the plan is totally different

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#666

Post by a_random_canuck » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:11 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #617

benced wrote: post #615

The WTO allows China to ban American social networks - which would otherwise be required to be allowed under its general principle of parity - because of its "public morals" exception ( https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/repertory_e/g4_... ). I personally don't think that exception should exist and I'm OK banning it solely on trade parity grounds.

China doesn't actually ban American social networks, not officially at least. They just don't work for some reason due to technical issues. China has never said "we ban Facebook and Google", you just wake up one day and they aren't working anymore.

“Officially” is meaningless here. The blocking exists, and it is at the direction or under the control of their government.

They are yet same thing. You know, if it looks like a duck.

This is standard operating procedure for the communist party. They rarely say any kind of topics or activities are banned outright. It’s just that if you say the wrong things in the wrong place, a bunch of plainclothes police will come to your home in the middle of the night.

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#667

Post by nmfisher » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:15 AM UTC

VHRanger wrote: post #612

SuperHeavy256 wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you are missing something. Because you're seeing tiktok as a product, not as a community of millions of people. There are tens of thousands of small family-owned businesses that are only able to survive because of Tiktok. For a lot of the younger crowd, Tiktok is part of social culture. Cutting out a part of someone's life like that is not a decision that should be taken lightly at all. Peace.

It's a community of millions of people, but which are seen by the millions is subject to the CCP's algorithm. Just search for "Uighur genocide" and see how many negative Tiktoks you find. Now go on any western social media platform, search for any contentious topic, and notice what's banned. It's not stuff that's harmful to the government (eg. Gaza/Israel topics) it's stuff that advertisers think is harmful (racism,…

Out of interest, I just tried this. "Uighur genocide" was the fifth auto-completed search result. In the "Top" tab, the first video was a (maybe Chinese) guy saying he never saw any discrimination against Uighurs and maybe Americans should ask about the Hawaiian cultural genocide. The video next to it was from (presumably) Uighur people saying that they were suffering cultural genocide and China was selling their organs. Below that was a snippet from Wikipedia saying that China had been committing cultural genocide against the Uighurs.

The prominence of the Chinese guy "denying" the cultural genocide was interesting - I wouldn't assume he's a plant (it's equally likely he's just a rabid nationalist) but the placement of the video does strike me as a little odd. It had 300 likes, but rates higher than the second video which had 5000 likes? Does smell a bit.

This is from Singapore, by the way. I assume geography makes a difference.

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#668

Post by insane_dreamer » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:15 AM UTC

dluan wrote: post #619

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn't actually ban American social networks, not officially at least. They just don't work for some reason due to technical issues. China has never said "we ban Facebook and Google", you just wake up one day and they aren't working anymore.

in practicality it doesnt matter because you can easily circumvent it with a VPN and nearly every single person does

this was never the case and is even less so now.

the vast majority of the population cannot easily use a VPN, especially not on their phone which many people use instead of a PC

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#669

Post by ngcc_hk » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:15 AM UTC

Should be an eye for an eye. If china allow WhatsApp and Facebook etc in then USA can have WeChat …. If not all should not be allowed. Not just TikTok.

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#670

Post by ngcc_hk » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:17 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #617

benced wrote: post #615

The WTO allows China to ban American social networks - which would otherwise be required to be allowed under its general principle of parity - because of its "public morals" exception ( https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/repertory_e/g4_... ). I personally don't think that exception should exist and I'm OK banning it solely on trade parity grounds.

China doesn't actually ban American social networks, not officially at least. They just don't work for some reason due to technical issues. China has never said "we ban Facebook and Google", you just wake up one day and they aren't working anymore.

That is as silly as argument as it is. We know what the game china played and it is not because of technology. Really someone can “hack” the technology. But if one pretend to sleep, you cannot wake them up easily.