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The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

theguardian.com

151–160 of 311 posts

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#151
> Mondragón Corporation is the globe’s largest industrial co-operative, with workers paying for the right to share in its profits

> That sentiment is echoed by Mondragón’s 70,000 other workers.

According to SCMP [1], Huawei has over 130,000 shareholding employees 3 years ago. So the "globe's largest" claim seems factually incorrect.

[1] - https://www.scmp.com/business/article/3173121/huawei-pays-ou...

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the idea is you replace individuals who solely manage across the board, with the idea management is really a part time job. That so many executives split their time would suggest that might very well be the case. With that in mind, there are many efficiencies imaginable beyond just the C-suite. And the employees now have ownership, so they have more of a reason to take up more responsibility than the curren…

Huh, that sounds like taking yet another full-time job and smearing its workload across everyone. That already happened with quite a lot of occupations - thanks to "increased productivity" brought by computers, a typical white-collar employee is now also doing the job of a secretary (calendar, mail, setting up meetings), graphics department (PowerPoint), financial department (managing and reporting travel expenses),…

> graphics department (PowerPoint)

You started the paragraph with the word "workload," but here the load is about as close to zero for the average employee as one could get without being pedantic about it.

People aren't using virtual brushes and learning color theory to digitally paint their PowerPoints, or even composing their slides effectively in the visual space provided as a graphic designer would in Photoshop. They are writing and revising their drafts in PowerPoint, often using the default templates or perhaps 2-3 minutes of trying out different themes.

That ends up smearing all the costs and benefits of default PowerPoint look-and-feel across the audience for all these boring presentations.

But I claim the cost to the employee's time and education due to them technically having taken on the responsibilities of a graphic designer are, on average, effectively zero.

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#153
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree that capitalism as we know it is highly flawed, but history has proven that socialism is not the answer.

Think you are mixing up Communism and Socialism. Socialism is alive and well and working. Every major capitalist society today (including US) has a percentage of Socialism sprinkled in to keep it functioning. Pure capitalism leads to a brutish tragic world, so some socialism is added to at least keep people from outright starving and rising up in revolution.

Yes you're talking about hybrids of socialism with capitalism, which are absolutely the way to go. History has shown that nation-scale "pure" socialism (which in practice nearly always results in a flavor of Marxism/Communism) is even more brutish and tragic than "pure" capitalism.

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#154
post #131
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask the average American worker if they'd like an extra $2300 a year. And yes I understand thats pre-tax. But even so, thats a non-negligible amount for a lot of people.

For whom $2,300 / year is meaningful is, dare I say, hard to answer question. Most of the people for whom an additional $2,300 / year is meaningful pay little to no taxes. However, a large chunk of these people also get Earning Income Credit. These people would lose at least part of this credit if their income increases. This question I believe can be answered by the bi-partisan U.S. Government Accountability Office…

Stepped tax thresholds are always a problem when they incentivise low-earners to keep their income below a certain, arbitrary level. However, it would be inappropriate to deny employees a raise based on the existence of tax levels - after all, wouldn't the employees pay exactly no tax at all if they weren't paid? The tax is also guaranteed in most cases to improve the economy of the local area. I don't know the specifics of how it works in the USA, but I am aware of 'buy American' policies for federal public spending and equivalent rules for local government.

Say an employee effectively gets $10 less money, but the company effectively now pays the government $1000 in the same period. That might mean new bus subsidies, legal aid, development grants... things which make everyone slightly better off in the long-term. I think that's a good trade-off.

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#155
post #20

For all the fearmongering of the Red Scare, this is what socialism looks like. Socialism is an industrial co-op like this where workers are fairly paid for their labor. Capitalism is Walmart where all profits are captured by a handful of shareholders and executives, being subsidized by the Federal government through food stamps to employees and decimating local economies to the point where they're left with dollar st…

Mondragon was founded by a Catholic priest and IMHO is more accurately described as Distributist than classically Socialist:

https://distributistreview.com/archive/mondragon-revisited?f...

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool, now combine the salaries of the entire C-suite. That’s what the parent comment is referring to.

Also maybe do it across a few more industries.

Also maybe move whatever other goalposts you can find until the Marxist theory begins to make sense.

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#157
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the yearly complaint in French politics that CAC40 companies are paying monstrous dividends, to which the answer is always: If they are so monstrous then surely you should simply buy the shares yourself? You could just be an Amazon or a Walmart shareholder by logging into your Robinhood account, unlike the feudal regime where to become an aristocrat you would need to be some sort of famous knight,…

First, intended or not there is an incredible amount of privilege in the idea that “everyone can be a shareholder”. An awful lot of Americans live paycheck-to-paycheck and struggle to afford housing and food. Increasing homelessness is, first and foremost, a consequence of housing unaffordability. Second, owning 10 shares of Amazon doesn’t make you a capital owner. If you still need your paycheck to survive, you’re a…

I dare say that Americans not being able to afford housing has very little to do with Walmart or Amazon, since it was neither that decided to turn housing into a very safe and investable financial asset, but rather the government.

The definition of capital owner being someone who doesn't need a paycheck to survive is weird. Your average startup founder needs a paycheck and he is clearly not a simple worker. As soon as you own shares in a company(or a bond) you are a capital owner. The question is then how much that capital is worth and what you can do to make this capital worth more.

Re: The Basque Country’s Mondragón Corporation is the largest industrial co-op

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also maybe do it across a few more industries.

Also maybe move whatever other goalposts you can find until the Marxist theory begins to make sense.

Also keep stubbornly clinging to the idea that organizing and coordinating workers is not real work.
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