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I'm giving up on open source

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Re: I'm giving up on open source

#81

Post by lomereiter »

anbardoi wrote: post #16

I understand the sentiment for this article, but I disagree with the part about using open source mainly to avoid paying for software. I use open source because I like having the ability to learn how it works. If I can't know how a program works, I can't have control over it. It is not my tool , I am its user . I also just like learning how technology works in general, and non-free software is generally difficult to…

If this were indeed the average attitude, there wouldn't be this big of an outcry with regards to the move from fully open-source to source-available licenses (Mongo/ELK/Hashicorp/etc.)

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#82

Post by zem »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #43
lordleft wrote: post #6

I will never understand how entitled or mean people can be towards OSS devs. I sympathize with this post a great deal and wish the author all the best in whatever he does next.

It's mostly naivety. There are a lot of people who really don't understand that people are doing something without getting paid, as a side gig, just to be helpful. They just don't get it. An uncle, who is a totally decent human being otherwise would complain loudly and bitterly at folks who ran kids sporting events when things didn't run smoothly. At the time I didn't think much of it, until I was an adult and saw th…

that is a wonderful parallel - well worth expanding into a blog post, if you have a blog.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#83

Post by bruce511 »

anaxamander wrote: post #63
haswell wrote: post #25

I'm struggling with the framing of all of this. I think it's clear that the author doesn't want to be involved with the realities (as unfortunate as they are) of maintaining an OSS project. There are very real issues with entitled or abusive users that have been well documented. What I don't understand is the expectation that the money would just flow upon publishing the software with a permissive license. It sounds…

> most people won't pay for software if ... they don't have a vested interest in the project succeeding. Wouldn't you expect companies that rely on a given project to have a vested interest in the project succeeding? I wouldn't choose to spend who-knows-how-many man hours on migrating to a new technology instead of paying a modest (for a business) fee for licensing something I rely on.

I think the root of your mis-expectation is in thinking that companies behave like people.

Your viewpoint is personal "I would do this" and for you it's easy, it's your money so you just write a check.

Companies don't work like that. Firstly because individuals get budgets, and there's no point wasting limited resources on free stuff. Secondly because individuals are accountable. There are procurement processes, multiple-level sign-offs, justifications, invoices etc.

In truth most OSS projects make it really hard to get "financial support". If you give away your product for free you make it almost impossible for a company to pay you.

My advice: if you plan to write OSS for a living -start- by understanding how company purchasing and invoicing work. Get that part right -before- you even decide what to build.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#84

Post by fsckboy »

Eji1700 wrote: post #52
unethical_ban wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nailed it. Particularly the fact that as valid as OP's situation is, it isn't necessarily indicative of FOSS as a whole. They basically say it in their article: They grew up on the koolaid (no offense, so did I) of how awesome Linux and BSD are, and the GNU principles that closed source software is unethical, to be avoided, and so on. It seems the harsh reality of "Not everyone can be sustained by a nonprofit foundat…

I've always found the diehard linux/FOSS crowd naive and abrasive simply because it seems to totally ignore reality. If you're good at coding, and you enjoy coding, you probably want to do it for a living. Not as a second job, not as a side project, and certainly not as a charity case that just flat out will not sustain you. There are precious few things that have the adoption and support linux has, and a lot of that…

none of the "fathers of opensource" had a problem with people coding for money, and it was always presented as a choice to donate code to the commonweal. And they knew how to handle and put constraints on people who were rude and asked too much, LART them or send a clue by four. But it's "you", the people who demand snowflake "codes of conduct", who don't know how to handle the negative energy and then you wind up exhausted and depressed and flailing. I'm not criticizing anybody or the way you/they want things to be, I just think you are mischaracterizing the past because you don't understand the social contract.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#85

Post by karp773 »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #24
endominus wrote: post #11

"The lower your prices, the more entitled the user base you seem to draw." Not literally, perhaps, but with a wider net you do catch more of the louder, more annoying or insulting voices. I've seen this repeated too many times already (RIP FairEmail). Is this simply an endemic issue in the software space? I can imagine a great deal of people thinking it's not worth it to financially support a project or plugin they r…

I think the simple truth of it is that the value of software just doesn't translate to a lot of people's day to day. People will spend tons of money more than willingly for access to streaming libraries full of inane, samey bullshit. People will spend $70 to access the latest AAA game, people will spend thousands on well-tuned PC's, people will spend tens of thousands on cars, hundreds of thousands on homes, with var…

A downvoted but an interesting comment. Years ago I shared this same opinion. When I first learned about Stallman's take on how software should be free, I thought the guy was insane.

But with time, it's now obvious he was right about a lot of things. Very few things in the history of humanity made as much impact as OSS and all the things it has inspired and enabled: Linux, gcc, Postges, and so on. Think about how many things are derived from Linux alone, e.g. Android. Zuck hacked on early Facebook in php and MySQL, it's his choice not mine, but still, the impact is obvious. Before people start piling up on me and downvoting, think about the things that Facebook open sourced like React, PyTorch, LLaMA, and so on. How can this be bad?

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#86

Post by haswell »

bruce511 wrote: post #67
haswell wrote: post #25

I'm struggling with the framing of all of this. I think it's clear that the author doesn't want to be involved with the realities (as unfortunate as they are) of maintaining an OSS project. There are very real issues with entitled or abusive users that have been well documented. What I don't understand is the expectation that the money would just flow upon publishing the software with a permissive license. It sounds…

I don't think he's suggesting everyone should abandon OSS. he's still using it, and contributing. I think he's saying that his "professional journey building OSS" is over. ie his day job needs to generate income. The abuse part exists in all software, free and commercial. But it's especially galling when you did the work for free. OSS also tends to attract, um, shall we say, those who are likely to be uncomplimentary…

> I think he's saying that his "professional journey building OSS" is over. ie his day job needs to generate income.

I agree that he’s saying this. But FTA:

> Open source is great, but it's not sustainable. We self-sabotaged ourselves over decades, and now we're at a point where it's hard to turn back. Publishing source code for the greater good is a noble cause, but to be honest, I think that over the years, using "open source" has become an excuse to avoid paying for software.

I interpreted this as something beyond just his personal position, and seemed like a broader indictment of the OSS model.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#87

Post by its-summertime »

https://opendayz.net/threads/bliss-hiatus.7490/ From the person who was the straw that broke the camel's back, per say.

> I am continually innundated with support requests from users who fail to read even the most perfunctory of documentation. I do not have time to support and maintain the project at this time.

Fairly ironic.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#88

Post by em-bee »

We self-sabotaged ourselves over decades, and now we're at a point where it's hard to turn back. Publishing source code for the greater good is a noble cause, but to be honest, I think that over the years, using "open source" has become an excuse to avoid paying for software.

i agree with most of what the author says, except this.

we sabotaged ourselves? by not predicting that people are greedy and have the nerve to complain about free stuff?

by giving code away and not expecting anything in return?

by building an entire operating system that now dominates the world?

i see no sabotage. nor do i see an excuse to avoid paying for software.

sure, there are freeloaders. and yes, there are idiots that feel entitled to get free support. and yes, companies are exploiting this.

but despite all that, thanks to an entirely free and open to modify operating system, the world is a better place for many.

what we failed to do is to make FOSS self sustainable in the sense that people can live off it.

but we have to ask, is that an error, or should we accept that as by design?

if it is the latter then we also have to accept that not everyone will be able to contribute. especially most will not be able to make a living from contributing to FOSS. but i believe this is fine.

contributing to FOSS should not expect a monetary reward. if you expect monetary reward, consider that the available FOSS software is comparable to other software that i'd have to pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for.

that is my monetary reward. but i am not making a living off it, nor do i expect to.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#89

Post by zogrodea »

tehnuge wrote: post #7

Happens too often. Ironic that the open source, "free" projects are often the most criticized.

It's pretty much that Bjarne Stroustrup quote: “There are only two kinds of [open source projects]: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses”.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#90

Post by _akhe »

wkat4242 wrote: post #64
lordleft wrote: post #6

I will never understand how entitled or mean people can be towards OSS devs. I sympathize with this post a great deal and wish the author all the best in whatever he does next.

I don't think this is unique to FOSS. There's always haters. Do you think Windows 11 devs don't get cursed at? Sure they do but because Microsoft shields them from the users they don't know about it. I can't log an angry issue against the windows repo because they've added yet another stupid ad somewhere. And the same goes with most commercial software. Most commercial outfits have support and development split out i…

Agree with this, you touched on all the points from corporate teams being shielded to support not being offended because it isn't their ego.

For those who dare to create and release things to the wild as an individual - hope you have thick skin! People are mean, lazy, heartless, cruel, brainless, but also occasionally helpful, thoughtful, and sometimes even smart - and can correct and improve you.

So it's overall worth it!

A lot of people have mastered this better than me, but you can see yourself in a sort of 3rd person sense instead of a 1st person sense (I think it's called "being objective") and when you do it fully and purely, you can't be offended, it's impossible, because if done correctly you no longer identify with yourself but as the bird's eye point-of-view - but because you are still in control of yourself, from this vantage point you can direct your intentionality from a much wiser position. And if somebody unjustly judges you out of spite, jealousy, resentment, etc. you can see it as clearly as if you viewed someone doing that to someone else. A powerful mindset to hold for public-facing creators. You get the benefits of being shielded, and "it's not my ego" and also ego when you want it - at night, under the stars, having a beer, when it's safe to feel proud.

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