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The man who killed Google Search?

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481–490 of 939 posts

Re: The man who killed Google Search?

#481
post #39
post #35

I think this article would work better if it were written entirely like textbook traditional investigative journalism. And less like the modern TV opinion personality, or the random strong-opinion Web comments in which many of the rest of us (including myself) indulge.

Agreed. I struggled to keep going after "computer scientist class traitor". A very juvenile take that reflects poorly on the author, IMO.

"Class traitor" isn't a juvenile insult. It has a fairly well-defined meaning and describes a set of problematic behaviors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_traitor

Are you saying that it's an incorrect description, or are you just generally against accusing people of things?

Re: The man who killed Google Search?

#482

Even though I agree with what the author is saying, the tone of this article is off putting to me. There are ways to call out people for being bad at their job without resorting to “class traitor” and “ratfucker”. That being said, Google search is 100% dead. I append “reddit” to every Google query to get actual results from people, and I don’t see it on Reddit, I give up on my query.

This is going to sound crazy, but do you know what the web really needs right now in 2024? A new, searchable directory. Like the old Yahoo! Directory or DMOZ. Just a carefully curated list of trusted sites that are made and managed by humans and for humans. Reddit is usually very bad, because it's heavily astroturfed and trivially easy for marketing firms to game. Something else is required.

With so much AI generated spam being pushed on the web I think this is where we are headed towards in a couple of months/years.

Oh and not to mention https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Internet_theory

Re: The man who killed Google Search?

#483

> But do you know who has? Sundar Pichai, who previously worked at McKinsey — arguably the most morally abhorrent company that has ever existed, having played roles both in the 2008 financial crisis (where it encouraged banks to load up on debt and flawed mortgage-backed securities) and the ongoing opioid crisis, where it effectively advised Purdue Pharma on how to “growth hack” sales of Oxycontin. That helps explain…

YouTube in India is in the government's pocket. If you have a channel that speaks against the government you are automatically pushed down in the search results, notification of your new videos suppressed for your subscribers etc.

And if you somehow manage to still gather enough Indian audience and you're doing sufficient damage then they block you in India entirely.

Re: The man who killed Google Search?

#484
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a good lesson for the new AI cycle we're in now. Often inserting ML subsystems into your broader system just makes it go from "deterministically but fixably bad" to "mysteriously and unfixably bad".

I think - I hope, rather - that technically minded people who are advocating for the use of ML understand the short comings and hallucinations... but we need to be frank about the fact that the business layer above us (with a few rare exceptions) absolutely does not understand the limitations of AI and views it as a magic box where they type in "Write me a story about a bunny" and get twelve paragraphs of text out. A…

> but we need to be frank about the fact that the business layer above us (with a few rare exceptions) absolutely does not understand the limitations of AI and views it as a magic box where they type in

I think we also need to be aware that this business layer above us that often sees __computers__ as a magic box where they type in. There's definitely a large spectrum of how magical this seems to that layer, but the issue remains that there are subtleties that are often important but difficult to explain without detailed technical knowledge. I think there's a lot of good ML can do (being a ML researcher myself), but I often find it ham-fisted into projects simply to say that the project has ML. I think the clearest flag to any engineer that this layer above them has limited domain knowledge is by looking at how much importance they place on KPIs/metrics. Are they targets or are they guides? Because I can assure you, all metrics are flawed -- but some metrics are less flawed than others (and benchmark hacking is unfortunately the norm in ML research[0]).

[0] There's just too much happening so fast and too many papers to reasonably review in a timely manner. It's a competitive environment, where gatekeepers are competitors, and where everyone is absolutely crunched for time and pressured to feel like they need to move even faster. You bet reviews get lazy. The problems aren't "posting preprints on twitter" or "LLMs giving summaries", it's that the traditional peer review system (especially in conference settings) poorly scales and is significantly affected by hype. Unfortunately I think this ends up railroading us in research directions and makes it significantly challenging for graduate students to publish without being connected to big labs (aka, requiring big compute) (tuning is another common way to escape compute constraints, but that falls under "railroading"). There's still some pretty big and fundamental questions that need to be chipped away at but are difficult to publish given the environment. /rant

Re: The man who killed Google Search?

#485
post #438

What's sort of interesting about that catalyst of “steady weakness in the daily numbers” is that it didn't equate to a plateau, decline, etc... It was that the ad dollars weren't, for the umpteenth time, exceeding YoY growth that far exceeded the growth in eyeballs watching/seeing ads. They were just somewhat exceeding the already meteoric growth of the web in general. Google had unrealistic expectations in sustainin…

> unrealistic expectations

From my (admittedly limited!) experience, unrealistic expectations are often set only when you want to push a senior off the team, and then as the new exec comes in, they'll "re-evaluate" the trajectory such that goals are much more realistic for their teams.

Re: The man who killed Google Search?

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I formed a worker co-op - but it's just me! And I do CAD reverse engineering, nothing really life-giving. I would love to join a co-op producing real human survival values in an open source way. Where would you suggest that I look for leads on that kind of organization?

Let's start with replacing Google. Count me in. While DDG, Brave, Kagi etc are working generously to replace Google search. The other areas that I think get less attention and needs to be targeted to successfully dismantle them and their predatory practices are Google maps and Google docs. Maps are hard because it requires a lot of resources and money and whatever but replacing docs should be relatively easier.

(paid user of Kagi here)

FWIW, Kagi is built on top of Google search, so yes it's "replacing" (for you and me) a dependence on Google search, but it is categorically not a from-the-ground-up replacement for Google search.

Re: The man who killed Google Search?

#487
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. But what do you expect when the boss comes from McKinsey? Not only does the place teach a particular skillset, it also selects for very peculiar employees. It would be downright weird if an ex-McKinsey employee were anything like a decent engineer.

Are there known examples of ex-McKinsey employees that are generally considered a force for good in general?

Peter Attia's book on longevity is really wonderful, as is his public discourse and research.

Re: The man who killed Google Search?

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here with YouTube, assuming they use ML, which is likely. They routinely give me brain-dead suggestions such as to watch a video I just watched today or yesterday, among other absurdities.

YT Shorts recommendations are a joke. I'm an atheist and very rarely watch anything related to religion, and even so Shorts put me in 3 or 4 live prayers/scams (not sure) the last few months.

YT Shorts itself is kind of a mystery to me. It's an objective degradation of the interface; why on earth would I want to use it? It doesn't even allow adjustment of the playback speed or scrubbing!

Re: The man who killed Google Search?

#489
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and gives us a name to actually blame. Understanding the dynamics is great, and we can learn from that, and apply it to other situations. As for who to blame for something a company does, shouldn't outsiders blame the entire company? That's our interface, and also how we can hold the company accountable for its collective behavior. It's also a defense against scapegoating: it wasn't just one person who made a unila…

> shouldn't outsiders blame the entire company No, I firmly believe that this level of indirection over-diffuses responsibility in a way that enables the malfeseance we're observing. It's a social dark pattern that I'm keen to identify and disrupt.

Yes, 100 percent. These dipwads pay themselves 100x salaries. The only way to defend that is that they take 100x responsibility for screwing things up. I would say differently if it was just a rank-and-file IC but this individual has enriched himself greatly. He can endure a little bit of scrutiny for that.

Re: The man who killed Google Search?

#490

Ex-Google search engineer here (2019-2023). I know a lot of the veteran engineers were upset when Ben Gomes got shunted off. Probably the bigger change, from what I've heard, was losing Amit Singhal who led Search until 2016. Amit fought against creeping complexity. There is a semi-famous internal document he wrote where he argued against the other search leads that Google should use less machine-learning, or at leas…

Thanks for writing this insightful piece. The pathologies of big companies that fail to break themselves up into smaller non-siloed entities like Virgin Group does. Maintaining the successful growing startup ways and fighting against politics, bureaucracy, fiefdoms, and burgeoning codebases is difficult but is a better way than chasing short-term profits, massive codebases, institutional inertia, dealing with corpora…

What's odd to me is how everything is so metricized. Clearly over metricization is the downfall of any system that looks meritocratic. Due to the limitations of metrics and how they are often far easier to game than to reach through the intended means.

An example of this I see is how new leaders come in and hit hard to cut costs. But the previous leader did this (and the one before them) so the system/group/company is fairly lean already. So to get anywhere near similar reductions or cost savings it typically means cutting more than fat. Which it's clear that many big corps are not running with enough fat in the first place (you want some fat! You just don't want to be obese!). This seems to create a pattern that ends up being indistinguishable from "That worked! Let's not do that anymore."

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