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Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

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451–460 of 497 posts

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is so amazing about someone who throws themselves under the bus? Shouldn't a manager increase the probability of success?

Hence why a good manager "throws themselves under the bus" in the event of failure — the manager failed to increase the probability of success.

I like this take a lot. This assumes that authority, competence and responsibility are aligned. However, this is often not the case in "modern" management as authority is spread very thin and responsibility is fluid (highly dependent on outcome).

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truly difficult bit is making an organization with 100 or 1000 different 4-8 people teams to build something more complex. There is a vast array of problems that need solving that just can't be tackled by one 4-8 person team.

It turns out that nothing in life can be tackled by one 4-8 person team. We are all heavily dependent on each other to build the complex things we have. Our solution to make that work at the macroeconomic scale is to employ a service model. The solution to which you speak is microservices. No, not some misguided multi-process IPC technology model that seems to have tried to usurp the name, I mean real microservices.…

But if "each 4-8 person team continues to act if they are an independent businesses", then (by definition) these small teams act on the market.

Why would they prefer the closed market over the global free market?

On the global free market they are not constrained to 8 employees, they can have 9 or more.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wanted OKRs to be flipped to a bottom up approach. Let every employee or manager define what's most important to them, or their team, and how they'll measure success. As it goes up the chain, managers and ultimately the CEO are responsible for taking all those goals rolling up to them and craft it into a plan or business direction. Effectively crowd sourcing your business from all of your employees. Of cours…

So, exaggerating, the CEO would be responsible to craft a business direction from this set: - publish more as open source, - migrate to novel: - libraries - frameworks - architectures - paradigms - small refactoring that hugely improves elegance and readability, - big refactoring that barely improves anything, - add an impressively-sounding feature, sponsored by letters C, R, D and T - ...in Rust

I'm not saying it'd be easy, or that it'd scale to a massive company, but then I don't think we should have such massive companies which is another discussion.

The examples you give are more like every employee getting to decide what they feel like working on. The idea would be for employees, as the ones almost always closest to customers, to define what they see as mattering most.

You have to remember that OKRs aren't just tasks. Ideas from the bottom up would include what they see as most important along with why its important and how success will be measured.

All of the examples you gave could be great examples if they are complete. Publish more open source to break into a new market or improve code maintainability. Migrate to a new library to fix long standing performance issues or unlock a new feature set. Redactor for readability to reduce code review time or speed up new feature development.

Other, more customer focused, examples could be to improve docs to reduce customer churn or improve discoverability for new users. Maybe you help in a support channel on Slack or Discord and find a ton of users asking for some specific integration, its very easy for you to see that pattern but hard for someone at the top to see it or assign it value.

Pushing down orders from the top is easier, and better at stoking ego. Hiring and developing your team well so you can honestly take their recommendations and craft the next 6 months of marketing or define a new product direction that ties together what your team has seen is much, much harder but an amazing strategy if done right IMO.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#454

> Stewart Butterfield, former CEO of Slack, recently described a dynamic within tech companies behind much of the over-hiring. He noted on Bloomberg’s Odd Lots podcast in late May that when there’s no real constraint on hiring, “you hire someone, and the first thing that person wants to do is hire other people.” The reason is that “the more people who report to you, the higher your prestige, the more your power in th…

Has any company ever tried having a bonus pool divided equally between all employees? Ie 5% of gross revenue / employees. So every time you add someone you reduce the bonus unless that person adds more to gross revenue?

thats usually called a 'profit share' (though I've only seen it based on net profit and not gross revenue). It was quite nice on Wall Street back in the 80s...Especially since everyone got an equal share rather then the managers favorites getting the bulk of 'discretionary' bonuses.

Paired with a nice xmas bonus and year end review/raises, it basically meant no-one quit because you were never more then 6 months from a fat check.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#455
post #89
post #43

Valve - the PC gaming giant and owner of Steam - is very famously a flat organization. Their Handbook for New Employees[1] that goes into detail about how they operate has made its way out into the world a few times as well. [1] - https://cdn.cloudflare.steamstatic.com/apps/valve/Valve_NewE...

That handbook is from 2012 so 12 years old now. Are there any updates?

I interviewed there, and took a tour of their office. From what everyone said and what I saw, I don't think the handbook is outdated.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns out that nothing in life can be tackled by one 4-8 person team. We are all heavily dependent on each other to build the complex things we have. Our solution to make that work at the macroeconomic scale is to employ a service model. The solution to which you speak is microservices. No, not some misguided multi-process IPC technology model that seems to have tried to usurp the name, I mean real microservices.…

But if "each 4-8 person team continues to act if they are an independent businesses", then (by definition) these small teams act on the market. Why would they prefer the closed market over the global free market? On the global free market they are not constrained to 8 employees, they can have 9 or more.

Every business needs millions, if not billions, of people working for them. The complexity cannot be handled otherwise.

But back to the topic at hand, there is an impossible level of communication overhead to burden if you try to keep millions (or even tens) of people on a single team. Like the original comment pointed out, we've never actually figured out how to do that. It might be a good idea in theory, but the problems remain unsolved.

The workaround is easy, though: Just don't do it. Do what everyone else does instead.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#457

> work together on projects of their choosing for 90 days, before regrouping for their next project. am i crazy or does intuitively this sounds like a recipe for disaster? how do you provide long-term value (never mind complete a new drug?) if everything changes every 90 days?

What if they an choose the same project again tho?

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is called Parkinson's Law: https://www.economist.com/news/1955/11/19/parkinsons-law "To comprehend Factor I, we must picture a civil servant called A who finds himself overworked. Whether this overwork is real or imaginary is immaterial; but we should observe, in passing, that A’s sensation (or illusion) might easily result from his own decreasing energy—a normal symptom of middle-age. For this real or imagined…

> There is probably no instance in civil service history I’m not sure that private firms are much better. Especially if the work they are doing has been contracted out to them.

I think it’s a different calculation in smaller companies or companies where employees have equity. “I make money if the business is successful” tends to remove a lot of bullshit you see in larger corporations and civil service.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As opposed to fake companies, that have no supply chain, with them being fake and all? I should have said "companies that can afford to". > How can you know? The problems needed to be solved to see that through were stated to be unsolved. Was there some breakthrough in the past 10 hours that you haven't mentioned and the rest of us missed? Because I can look at the price of goods versus their cost. A company that o…

> Because I can look at the price of goods versus their cost. A company that owns the production chain for a sub-component is paying the cost of that component, while a company that doesn't pays the market price. I'm not sure I follow. Let's say Acme Inc. produces a widget that is a subcomponent of their larger product. When that subcomponent is within the control of a team of four who works for Acme Inc., the compan…

I think this whole thread may be at least partly a misunderstanding.

The way I see it, the discussion began by saying that any team (but in context, referring to a whole company) that grows past a certain size needs a traditional hierarchical system of layers of management to function. Then, someone said that a team/company should just not grow past 4-8 people, and thus you avoid the need of hierarchical management.

My point is that this idea makes no sense. A company can't function as a composite of hundreds or thousands of sled organizing small teams without any management to coordinate them.

My understanding is that you claimed that such a thing is possible, and that in fact it is how the free market and thus the economy of most nations actually functions, without any hierarchy.

I was then rebutting this by showing that the economy does form hierarchies (with large buyers essentially viewing small sellers as subordinates, not independent market actors, when they're not outright buying them).

So, I would argue, the economy is not generally organized as a bunch of independent small orgs, but as a series of huge conglomerates that either own their suppliers, or at least dictate market terms for some period with contracts. The idea of a free market where buyers and sellers meet and negotiate prices based on supply and demand is largely a myth, with some limited exceptions.

As such, the hierarchy in how Linux is built is in line with my original idea: not supply and demand based, but instead organized in a relatively rigid hierarchy.

In support of why I'm claiming that this system of hierarchies arises due to efficiency, I gave the example of how much it costs a company to buy a piece they need versus how much it costs them to produce it internally. This is meant to show that a supply&demand based self-organizing market (the flat, many small teams without managers model) is less efficient than an integrated supply chain (the top-down hierarchical model, with layers of management).

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#460

I am not convinced. Reading the whole article it seems that Bayer is moving to a system better known as QBR, mixed with OKRs and most likely some sort of agile model. There is no no-hierarchies. Working in a 3 month cadence on an organizational level puts a lot of pressure on all people. Usually QBRs work top down and there is more monitoring along the process. What sounds great is more or less success theatre as wel…

I've of the best essays I've read explaining this kind of phenomenon is The Tyranny of Structurelessness ( https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm ). It's a critique from a feminist in the 70s account how the feminist movement's attempt to have no hierarchy created implicit hierarchies that were less accountable too the group than explicit hierarchies

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