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Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

fortune.com

361–370 of 497 posts

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#361

> work together on projects of their choosing for 90 days, before regrouping for their next project. am i crazy or does intuitively this sounds like a recipe for disaster? how do you provide long-term value (never mind complete a new drug?) if everything changes every 90 days?

> how do you provide long-term value

You don't. My employer switched to this type of project structure 16 months ago and so far all "projects" have been useless short sighted solo work.

The only benefit I've seen is it's a great for anyone who wants to coast until retirement. For example my current "project" is to stand up our production Kafka cluster. I provisioned and configured the servers within a day and now I'm sitting around twiddling my thumbs for the next 89 days.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some limit to how many people you can manage effectively. So, in a company with, say, 10,000 employees, you can't have just one layer of management between COs and ICs. You'd either need each manager to work with 500 direct reports, or you'd need the COs to work with 500 managers. If we look at 100,000 employee orgs, this gets even sillier. If you even attempt something like this, what will actually happen w…

Depends on if you are managing people or you are micromanaging people. It should be possible to manage 22 employees if you are good at setting directions and explaining why those directions have been chosen. You can have 22 people in one room and do functional group discussions, this is like a good size for a school class. 1 CEO -> 22 level A managers each level A manager -> 22 level B = 22 * 22 = 484 level B each le…

Middle management time breaks down like this:

- 40-60% trying to figure out how to turn large strategic goals into projects digestible by your staff

- 20-30% coordinating up to get permission and sync with senior management, and then coordinate workshare with your peers

- 20-30% coordinating with your staff

- 75% of your time then gets sunk into squishy people problem stuff most people would call "HR problems"

"But this adds up to over 100%!" - yup

When an HR problem arises, at least 8 hours will immediately vaporize out of your schedule. It's not uncommon for bad situations to turn into multiple days to resolve.

On average, in my experience as a manager for the last 20 years, you will lose about 8 hours per month per staff member to "HR problems". It doesn't mean every staff member has these problems, but there will absolutely be those that have multiple repeated issues that take a long time to resolve. If your average work week has about 21 or 22 work days, you've just designed a full-time staff manager who does nothing else. Imagine performance review time in this structure where each review requires this staff manager to solicit performance input from each staff members task manager. I can tell you from personal experience it turns into a solid month of long nights and zero staff satisfied with their review.

This kind of construct does exist in many companies, but most companies have decided that it's more efficient to have the staff manager and the task manager be the same person, even if they have to swallow the fact that it makes organizations less flat as that manager simply doesn't have the time to deal with so many people as direct reports.

And voila, corporate hierarchy.

There are certainly managers who deal with having so many direct reports by simply not allocating time to staff management issues (i.e. HR problems) or not dealing with them in a timely fashion. The result is usually chaos, high-turnover, blah blah, but the actual end result is that staff become fungible units as the organization has to plan around this effective unreliability.

Staff also have fewer career growth options as the divide between worker bees and management transition becomes an insurmountable gulf. New management staff then tend to be brought in from the outside, and don't know the business or products. Enshittification occurs because the only comprehensible strategy anybody can cling to is revenue growth.

Anecdotally, the places I've worked that were flat all featured these characteristics while well balanced hierarchies were able to grow, build long-term strategies, and had high-retention rates.

For the record, I've had as high as 20 direct reports where I was both staff and task manager and it was hell on everybody. I've also had as high as 75 reports in a well structured organization (no more than 5-7 people per manager) and it was totally fine. Companies were software, R&D, or some mix.

Note: the average Googler stays at Google for 1.3 years. In my current company the average employee stays for just under 5.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#363
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

22 is so many direct reports. If my supervisor had 22 direct reports. I'd just check out mentally because I know I wouldn't get any real face time with them to discuss issues. Skip manager attention? Forget it. With 22 direct reports, you're not there to add your expertise and make the process better, but to be a cog in the machine.

Maybe there is a cultural difference here. I see repeated 1:1 sessions as micromanagement, like being treated as a kid that needs their hand held. I don't want to discuss work items on 1:1 with the manager, I want to discuss them in a group setting because it is the group as a whole that solves the tasks. I also want the input from other members in the group instead of only the managers view. In my country we do pers…

> I see repeated 1:1 sessions as micromanagement, like being treated as a kid that needs their hand held.

There's space between viewing employees as children needing to be coddled on the one side and viewing them as completely rational automatons on the other.

I worked for three years for a "flat" company where we were all expected to independently define our own goals, schedules, and get support when needed. When everything was going smoothly, it worked well—I had a degree of freedom that was an incredible relief after my previous employer. But when I lost sight of how I could best benefit the company, I went into a spiral that led to months of me questioning my ability to work in this field at all (or whether I was a capable adult at all). Without a reporting chain—or official support structure of any kind—I didn't know where to turn; and knowing that it was my responsibility to correct this mess made the spiral go even deeper when I failed to do so.

At the time I was fired from that job, I was having issues with my blood pressure for the first time in my life. Within months afterward, my blood pressure returned to a normal level, and my wellbeing improved in so many other ways that can't be so readily measured.

I'm fortunate to now be in an environment that both has formal support structures as well as informal communication and feedback loops. I'm still the ultimate person responsible for my success, but my manager (and others in the company) are also invested in it. Perhaps I have less autonomy than I did (I still have quite a bit, especially compared to other places I've worked), but I find myself much more relaxed. Guardrails can be freeing.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#364
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good manager is simple to see: success is the team's, failure is their fault. If it is not the case, you have a bad manager.

What is so amazing about someone who throws themselves under the bus? Shouldn't a manager increase the probability of success?

It's about shielding the team from the consequences of failure. A good manager will say "If my team failed it's because I did not prepare them well enough/lead them well enough/manage expectations well enough". this is what ownership looks like. It is orthogonal to probability of failure.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#365

I am not convinced. Reading the whole article it seems that Bayer is moving to a system better known as QBR, mixed with OKRs and most likely some sort of agile model. There is no no-hierarchies. Working in a 3 month cadence on an organizational level puts a lot of pressure on all people. Usually QBRs work top down and there is more monitoring along the process. What sounds great is more or less success theatre as wel…

I've of the best essays I've read explaining this kind of phenomenon is The Tyranny of Structurelessness (https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm).

It's a critique from a feminist in the 70s account how the feminist movement's attempt to have no hierarchy created implicit hierarchies that were less accountable too the group than explicit hierarchies

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#366
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good manager is simple to see: success is the team's, failure is their fault. If it is not the case, you have a bad manager.

Is it possible for the manager to be given insufficient resources by their manager? Such as insufficient pay to hire sufficiently skilled people, or insufficient budget to hire sufficient people? Whose fault is the failure then?

In a good organization, there will be several layers of people owning failures of different types. The low level manager can claim ownership of failure to sufficiently manage expectations, their manager can claim ownership of failure to prioritize properly, and a yet higher level leader can own failure to provide funding.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#367
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

22 is so many direct reports. If my supervisor had 22 direct reports. I'd just check out mentally because I know I wouldn't get any real face time with them to discuss issues. Skip manager attention? Forget it. With 22 direct reports, you're not there to add your expertise and make the process better, but to be a cog in the machine.

Maybe there is a cultural difference here. I see repeated 1:1 sessions as micromanagement, like being treated as a kid that needs their hand held. I don't want to discuss work items on 1:1 with the manager, I want to discuss them in a group setting because it is the group as a whole that solves the tasks. I also want the input from other members in the group instead of only the managers view. In my country we do pers…

Imagine every time a decision had to made where you were clearly the only person who needed to be met with and 20-50 people had to be plowed into a room to make that decision.

Instead of 2 person hours going into that effort, now we've just vaporized half a week to a week of person hours. A $300 decision just turned into at least a $3000 decision and the opportunity to handle 16x more point decisions just disappeared.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on if you are managing people or you are micromanaging people. It should be possible to manage 22 employees if you are good at setting directions and explaining why those directions have been chosen. You can have 22 people in one room and do functional group discussions, this is like a good size for a school class. 1 CEO -> 22 level A managers each level A manager -> 22 level B = 22 * 22 = 484 level B each le…

I forgot where I read it, but a study years ago said something along the lines of 3-7 is the optimum number of direct reports someone can have.

True!

In firefighting (in Germany) we usually stick to no more than 8 people under direct control. That's an amount of people you can take care of.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#369

I am not convinced. Reading the whole article it seems that Bayer is moving to a system better known as QBR, mixed with OKRs and most likely some sort of agile model. There is no no-hierarchies. Working in a 3 month cadence on an organizational level puts a lot of pressure on all people. Usually QBRs work top down and there is more monitoring along the process. What sounds great is more or less success theatre as wel…

Asking for everyone here. What’s a QBR?

Quarterly business review in my experience

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't play the hero. Unless you want to get rewarded with even more work. Do the job you are assigned to or ask for a raise.

Sure, I'm aware of it, but having your team abjectly fail isn't good for your continued job prospects either. You shouldn't be the hero, but you also don't want to have your team get fired for want of you spending 2 hours of work a week keeping it on track.

https://noidea.dog/glue
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