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Joining a startup: high salary, no equity OR "startup salary" with equity?

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Re: Joining a startup: high salary, no equity OR "startup salary" with equity?

#31
post #9

If the CEO has been a success before at a level you want to be: consider equity. If there's no track record, the equity isn't worth the paper it's printed on. You'll come out ahead with the high salary until you are really on an all star team with a track record.

If the CEO has been a success before at a level you want to be: consider equity

This is an important point. I took a job at a startup where the founders have all been part of two 200M exits (1 IPO in the first internet boom and 1 acquisition in 2005). They all made out very well with their options (big house, small yacht, small plane kind of money). They definitely have the connections and the vision to repeat their success. They offered me 3 choices for compensation: high salary, low equity; low salary, high equity; medium salary, medium equity. I ran the numbers and figured based on previous exits that it would be more likely that the higher salary over 5 years would be a better payoff if the company doesn't have at least a 100M exit, and if we do have a much bigger exit, 2% vs 3% will just mean a smaller yacht and no plane.

Re: Joining a startup: high salary, no equity OR "startup salary" with equity?

#32
post #9

If the CEO has been a success before at a level you want to be: consider equity. If there's no track record, the equity isn't worth the paper it's printed on. You'll come out ahead with the high salary until you are really on an all star team with a track record.

Be careful with this. If the founders already had a successful exit and are already set financially for life, they'll be more willing to turn down life-changing amounts of money at the shot of an even bigger payout.

Re: Joining a startup: high salary, no equity OR "startup salary" with equity?

#33

I would absolutely love to work for a startup as an early engineering hire. I'd take an enormous pay cut for the right firm, people, and product. However, for 1%, 2%, 3%, or even an unheard of 10% equity, it's just simply not worth it when it's so cheap and easy to start something myself or find a co-founder. It's odd that I follow Hacker News and lap up everything startup and YC related, but I wouldn't even click on…

If they're not paying you and you accept But if they've raised money and you're drawing a salary? The startup is massively de-risked. You should accept far less equity. You take on virtually none of the downside risk and still participate in the upside risk.

As an employee, the situation you want to avoid is the quick flip. Do the case analysis:

Failure: better to be a first employee than a founder. You should be better paid, and your 3% of $0 is the same as 50% of 0.

Quick flip (aka HR acquisition): Founders make out much better than first employees, since they'll typically be granted large retention bonuses. Best case you get a free option on a job at the acquirer which probably comes with a reasonably good bonus structure for the first few years.

Acquisition for value: Everyone gets rich. Founders get very rich, first employee gets much richer than he possibly could have working any normal job.

Don't work for people who want to flip their company to Google in 6 months. Work for people who want to change the world.

[1] Unless you've co-founded it with like, Steve Jobs. In which case you should probably take 1% if that's the offer. Also, you are probably a necromancer.

Re: Joining a startup: high salary, no equity OR "startup salary" with equity?

#34
post #33

I would absolutely love to work for a startup as an early engineering hire. I'd take an enormous pay cut for the right firm, people, and product. However, for 1%, 2%, 3%, or even an unheard of 10% equity, it's just simply not worth it when it's so cheap and easy to start something myself or find a co-founder. It's odd that I follow Hacker News and lap up everything startup and YC related, but I wouldn't even click on…

If they're not paying you and you accept But if they've raised money and you're drawing a salary? The startup is massively de-risked. You should accept far less equity. You take on virtually none of the downside risk and still participate in the upside risk. As an employee, the situation you want to avoid is the quick flip. Do the case analysis: Failure: better to be a first employee than a founder. You should be bet…

"Don't work for people who want to flip their company to Google in 6 months. Work for people who want to change the world."

That's a great point. I really think any entrepreneur looking for a quick out is another sign of an (un)intentional scam artist.

Re: Joining a startup: high salary, no equity OR "startup salary" with equity?

#35
If someone asks you to trade a significant part of your salary for equity, you're effectively investing in their company.

If someone asks you to invest in their company, approach it the same way as if they were asking you for cash - do your due diligence and ask lots of questions. I can't stress this enough - do your homework. Don't make assumptions that just because the founders are successful people that the company will be successful either.

Evaluate the same things a VC would look at - how does the founding team fit, what is the revenue model, burn rate, marketing strategy, who do they plan on staffing, what kind of investment do they have already, plans for raising another round etc. Don't be shy with these questions - the founders want you to trust them and be a part of the team and you have a right to know the answers.

Basically don't base your decision on a gut feeling and some ad hoc criteria, think like an investor before you invest.

Re: Joining a startup: high salary, no equity OR "startup salary" with equity?

#36
post #33

I would absolutely love to work for a startup as an early engineering hire. I'd take an enormous pay cut for the right firm, people, and product. However, for 1%, 2%, 3%, or even an unheard of 10% equity, it's just simply not worth it when it's so cheap and easy to start something myself or find a co-founder. It's odd that I follow Hacker News and lap up everything startup and YC related, but I wouldn't even click on…

If they're not paying you and you accept But if they've raised money and you're drawing a salary? The startup is massively de-risked. You should accept far less equity. You take on virtually none of the downside risk and still participate in the upside risk. As an employee, the situation you want to avoid is the quick flip. Do the case analysis: Failure: better to be a first employee than a founder. You should be bet…

You might just be a disturbed director of a lifesized puppet theater with access to a mini jcb and thoughts of taking contemporary seaside entertainment to the next level of historical accuracy. In which case Steve wont have had a lot of creative input and you might want to take 2%.

Re: Joining a startup: high salary, no equity OR "startup salary" with equity?

#37
High salary.

If you're actually a real partner (a concept that makes more sense in lifestyle businesses than in VC-funded startups, where only founders and VC implants end up being partners) then equity can make you rich. If you're the 35th person to hop onto the train, you're really just an employee and you're better off with a decent paycheck. The options might pay off, but they won't make you rich in most cases... so it's usually better to have a salary, which might not make you rich either but gives you stability.

The #1 concern should be what you'll learn and what kind of role you'll have, though. Unless we're talking about order-of-magnitude differences, or at least orders of binary magnitude, that's more important than either.

Re: Joining a startup: high salary, no equity OR "startup salary" with equity?

#38
I don't mind "startup salary" if I like the technologies and believe in the product and more importantly the people. I make half what I used to make in a corporate environment but I love what I do and the people are as and more talented than I.

If I don't believe so much in the product or the people, then it's just another job. Equity is a non factor and the salary must be commensurate with my experience.

Re: Joining a startup: high salary, no equity OR "startup salary" with equity?

#39
post #22

First, it depends on your risk aversion. If you have kids to support, you usually can't afford take as much risk - so the "startup salary" might not even be an option. But assuming you can afford the risk: Make a guesstimate about the expected value of an exit, add some risk premium, and compare. e.g. If you assume $1B exit with prob. 3% (and no other outcomes), the expected value of the company is $30M. If you are o…

This is a good comment because it steps through the math. People seem to go to amazing lengths to avoid doing back-of-the-envelope calculations of this sort. Thank you.

I will say that "3% of $100M (and no other outcomes)" would be an extremely pessimistic assessment of a startup, a so-called "risky double."

Re: Joining a startup: high salary, no equity OR "startup salary" with equity?

#40
This is perfect timing. Can someone offer me advice? I'm young.

I'm in the process of negotiating to join a biotech startup in the Bay Area. I am a graduating undergraduate student, and interned with the startup team previously when they were working in research at BigCo. They left, licensed their own hardware patents from BigCo, and are starting up. They are asked me to join them in return for housing reimbursement, a meager living allowance, and an uncertain amount of equity.

I know it depends on how much risk I am willing to shoulder, but what would be reasonable terms for salary and equity, considering I'm a fresh grad?

They would bring me on as an early engineering hire, and they are currently bootstrapping from savings while working on the product and courting angels. Series A would certainly be far off. The founders have solid connections, and have brought in an experienced woman to act as CEO/advisor until they have funding. She was previously the CEO of a well-regarded company in the same space.

The equity would be in the form of RSU, and salary would increase after angel funding, and to market rate later on or with Series A. The personalities of the founders are great, and I believe in the product.

I don't have an employment history, but I interned at well-known research institutions each summer, later at BigCo, and attended (private) school on a full merit scholarship. My skill set extends beyond software to several other areas (that would, if mentioned, make it possible to identify me). I'm wet behind the ears, but capable.

I also have a regular "corporate" offer elsewhere, at a salary comparable to a low-end Bay Area market salary.

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