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I love programming but I hate the programming industry

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Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#131

Post by tacitusarc »

fuzzy2 wrote: post #41
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

I think “industry” strongly implies “corporate world”. However > The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. Guess I’m the corporate world then! Listen here, dear colleagues: Before attempting any finesse, abstraction, wit or beauty, maybe first try to make it work to spec. Because otherwise it is entirely worthless . If you are reasonably good at making it work, you…

Specs are fickle, vague things. Well written code can accommodate the whims of users and execs alike.

I also tend to find that folks who write quick and dirty code “to spec” leave it riddled with bugs and unhandled corner cases.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#132

Post by leke »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

This. I've been very happily working in a small company and we recently got a new CTO. In a couple of days we will find out which 6 of us are being terminated. Corporate fat trimmings and all that.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#133

Post by mihaitodor »

game_the0ry wrote: post #23

I have similar feelings with leetcode. I love software engineering, but leetcode makes me hate software engineering. I just want to build cool stuff. I don't want to implement LRU cache and another leetcode medium-hard in under 40 mins from memory.

Just say no to it. I decided to go public and add on my LinkedIn and now on GitHub too a disclaimer (see here https://github.com/mihaitodor) that I refuse to do Leetcode-style interviews or anything like that and I'm happier since. Sure, there are companies which will refuse to talk to me because of this, but that's fine. I never passed one of those interviews anyway and always had to take jobs where I didn't have to live code during the interview.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#134

Post by abnercoimbre »

stavros wrote: post #118
mariusor wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the about page. The landing page has more info: > We are the largest indie conferences for low-level programmers. This is your portal to meet with folks into graphics, game engines, kernels, compilers, and more!

Ah, derp, I didn't look at the link, thank you.

The one time I link to the About page instead of the landing... sorry! (I only did it because it mentions the bit about being sponsor-free.)

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#135

Post by neilv »

As a software engineer, your craft is about the breadth of software engineering, and embracing professional pride and dedication in doing that well. Well implies towards the goals of the organization.

Programming is only one piece, and not the most important.

And the nature of the programming you do changes because of the software engineering concerns. (Examples: on a given project, a goal might be that the code be maintainable long-term, or maintainable by others, or not disrupt an interface with another team, or delivered in a certain short timeframe, or work the first time and every time.)

Where it gets much more complicated is that a lot of companies are highly inefficient or dysfunctional internally, and don't really permit doing software engineering well. So, you might find yourself not only not allowed to do programming like you love, but also not able to practice or even recognize the craft of software engineering.

If you love programming, find a job that will let you do some of what you love, or save your love for your own time. If it's your own time, have especial fun with it, and don't turn it into a job without pay (unless you can also turn it into a paying job, like a startup).

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#136

Post by msteffen »

Seeing a lot of agreement here, so I thought I’d post to say that I don’t agree with much of this. I don’t think the problem is “industry”, and I think open source is often similar.

I wrote a short series of blog posts a while ago (in need of revision, but good enough for now…) about decisionmaking in software: https://prog.blog/essays/decisions/

The upshot is that decisions in software are creative products—there isn’t usually a “right answer”, only benefits and drawbacks. And one decision’s consequences become the next decision’s parameters. The reason businesses don’t like it when you start re-litigating old decisions is that the alternatives to what was chosen are typically not strict improvements, and implementing them would require re-making a bunch of other downstream decisions.

It’s fine to feel that your new company’s codebase is ugly, but recognize that it got that way because creative professionals needed to make a decision in their codebase with their own backgrounds and limited information about who would be using their software and how. I think that maybe the only alternative is to set up shop as a solo dev.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#138

Post by [deleted] »

bdw5204 wrote: post #52
fuzzy2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think “industry” strongly implies “corporate world”. However > The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. Guess I’m the corporate world then! Listen here, dear colleagues: Before attempting any finesse, abstraction, wit or beauty, maybe first try to make it work to spec. Because otherwise it is entirely worthless . If you are reasonably good at making it work, you…

In my experience, most of the corporate world seems to care more about their aesthetic notions of the Platonic ideal of what code should look like than whether or not it works or whether or not it is efficient. Certainly that's my experience from interviews. Maybe the people who care about business value should be the engineering managers not the people who equate their personal aesthetic preferences with the only ri…

[deleted]

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#139

Post by bruh2 »

pseudogrammaton wrote: post #111

Side topic, corporate vs. non-profit sector: Downside: 75% lower rate than standard industry rate (5% lower rate of pay than "80%-Compa"). Upside: 38-hr work-week instead of the corporate-standard 50-hr week - effective hourly rate is 5% higher. Plus: Set my own pace, nobody's getting rich at someone else's expense. Rarely, if ever, are there mass layoffs.

How did you find a _technical_ job at a non-profit? What type of role do you perform?

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#140

Post by atmosx »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

That is true. But the way you present the reality of the industry makes it sound like anyone could do anything. That is, obviously, not the case. For example, research lab code usually sucks big time, while other industries might higher standards. Some teams try to make up for lack of personnel by implementing extreme level of automation, in that case you need high quality code, with well thought abstractions and there are only so many engineers who will deliver that.

So it’s not just “coffee -> code” machine. But the idea that a suit cares about the implementation details, programming languages and such is obviously not true and this community sometimes make it seem as if these things matter. They do to us, engineers, no one else cares much like my wife couldn’t care less about LBJ being better than MJ at basketball (he is not, obviously).

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