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I love programming but I hate the programming industry

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Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#81

Post by ponector »

lpapez wrote: post #30
ponector wrote: post #5

After 10+ years of work in enterprise software development I don't care about the results or where the circus is heading. Only thing I care now is a paycheck with ridiculously high salary.

> Only thing I care now is a paycheck with ridiculously high salary. ... and also about minimizing the amount of stress experienced. Mostly through simply doing the bare possible minimum, but sometimes also doing a bit more to prevent stress down the line. Caring-just-enough-to-not-care-a-lot-later-driven development I call it.

Yes, that is true. Do bare minimum but brag a lot. Maximum visibility! Like you moved mountains.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#82

Post by sokoloff »

jackcviers3 wrote: post #34
_trampeltier wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A part of the problem is, no user ever look at codebases. Unlike you da a PCB, make an electrical machine, build a bridge, people see the result. In software people see the UI. Also because copying is free, in PCB for ex. every jumper wire cost you, in software they are for free. So why fixing things truely.

Copying isn't free though. Every front-end application built on Electron or running in a container that duplicates half of the OS stack burns more memory on my computer, forcing earlier upgrades of either the entire machine or RAM with each year that passes. It's free to produce, but the cost of running more copied software always increases.

But that at least allows the consumer to decide the tradeoff.

If this Electron app or container costs me more than it’s worth to me, I don’t run it.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#83

Post by phkahler »

I used to think like that but no more. We're currently working on a new product. One that most the team would like to own and use when/if it gets to market. I'm very much contributing in my area of expertise, and yet... I've had to make some compromises to make target dates. Those dates are not all arbitrary - we need to be at certain events to stir up connections, interest, and get feedback on what we're doing. Half the code is written by another person with vastly different ideas and style, yet we've formed a decent boundary that's stable and we stay on our side. None of it is perfect, but I'm excited about the product. I'd say "hey come work with us" to this guy but I honestly don't think he'd be happy. That frustration is coming from inside.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#84

Post by groestl »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

Programming without moving the the needle on _something_ is, ultimately, ugly. Granted, not all needles are worth money. But for the subset of needles that do, you can bang out all the beautiful code you want, and you will get respect for it, in a functional org, even corporate. Abstractions for abstraction sake are frowned upon for good reason.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#85

Post by msephton »

colund wrote: post #49
msephton wrote: post #3

Solution: go independent, work on your own ideas, and sell them to consumers. That might be your own start-up, but for me it was to become an indie game developer. One of my games, YOYOZO, was featured in Ars Technica's "Best Video Games of 2023" so I feel my decision was the right one.

Out of curiosity, how did you support yourself financially while creating the game? Did you also do freelancing or did you use savings etc?

I funded myself with the proceeds of earlier games. The game in question took only 23 days to make. I'd say I make one game every couple of months.

The initial short ramp up to the first game sales was funded by COVID-19, some freelance, some savings, some ebaying. But on the whole my game sales fund the next game.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#86

Post by rnewme »

rrr_oh_man wrote: post #69
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> first try to make it work to spec In my professional experience, the only spec you get is a wishlist, never quantified, always vague. Half the work is figuring out what the customer wants. The only metric that anyone cares about is speed. You need to go fast, but to where? There is no consensus.

If quick and dirty gets you 10 shots, while slow and beautiful gets you 1, I’d choose quick & dirty any day.

That's not how you build big important, expensive things, though. It all depends on the context.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#87

Post by _trampeltier »

jackcviers3 wrote: post #34
_trampeltier wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A part of the problem is, no user ever look at codebases. Unlike you da a PCB, make an electrical machine, build a bridge, people see the result. In software people see the UI. Also because copying is free, in PCB for ex. every jumper wire cost you, in software they are for free. So why fixing things truely.

Copying isn't free though. Every front-end application built on Electron or running in a container that duplicates half of the OS stack burns more memory on my computer, forcing earlier upgrades of either the entire machine or RAM with each year that passes. It's free to produce, but the cost of running more copied software always increases.

So yes, it's free for the dev. The user payes the memory and electricity.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#88

Post by claytongulick »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #54

I've been a developer for 30+ years and unfortunately there's not a lot in the OP that I can disagree with. I wish I could. Young people get told that building tech and software is a creative endeavour where they can apply their innate passion. Certain kinds of minds get attracted to work that is based on symbols and abstraction and repetitive activities. Years pass and the shareholders get fat. The truth is that sof…

> almost all of us are hacking code out of the code-face merely to enrich other people

Colloquially known as "work". The thing we all do in order to have nice things and a society.

> to enrich other people: the people with the corner offices, and the people above them with the yachts

Good! That would mean the thing I produced had value. I hope everything I create has value. One day I hope that I've practiced enough, learned enough and gained enough experience and savings that I can employ others responsibly.

If I have good ideas and do it right, there's a chance that I could have that yacht. It's what we call economic incentive, or "motivation".

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#89

Post by pyrale »

PUSH_AX wrote: post #71
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

Corporate? I think ultimately we’re talking about any business here. And a business doesn’t exist to facilitate engineers to go back and forth on a PR for a week, or to fantasise about abstractions all day. The entire problem is the vast majority of engineers have an inability to recognise the business function of their output. They live in their own worlds with tunnel vision on minutia. I can’t pin point when this h…

> The entire problem is the vast majority of engineers have an inability to recognise the business function of their output.

Who would have thought this would happens when actual business talks to a business analyst, who talks with a product owner, who talks with the engineer (when a PO proxy didn't manage to squeeze in between them).

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#90

Post by slfnflctd »

lolinder wrote: post #22

> 90% of the time when I read descriptions it is excruciatingly obvious to me that whatever code the chosen candidates will end up writing at this job will be completely removed from any important problem not only humanity, but even any individual human has ever had. Startup culture is shamelessly at the forefront of this industry’s ‘produce more code and ask less questions’ policy. I would suggest that part of the p…

I'm one of those people who will happily take a pretty big pay cut for my sanity 9 times out of 10. I grew up in a low income household and have lived on very little at several points in my adult life, it comes naturally to me and I almost prefer it in some ways. My mental health is more likely to be threatened by over-stress or a lack of meaning than by having to stretch a shoestring budget.

The only time staying in a job I don't have many positive feelings about (or worse, only negative feelings) makes sense to me is if I have very specific plans for the extra money I'm making and very good odds of seeing the plan through.

Such a way of life isn't for everyone, but I strongly advise those who maybe lean less materialist than the norm and/or aren't afraid of more frugal living to consider it. Especially if you've been asking yourself more than once a week lately how much more of 'this great job you have' you can tolerate without a breakdown.

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