I love programming but I hate the programming industry • Hacker News Board

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#41

Post by fuzzy2 » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 1:09 PM UTC

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

I think “industry” strongly implies “corporate world”.

However

> The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code.

Guess I’m the corporate world then! Listen here, dear colleagues: Before attempting any finesse, abstraction, wit or beauty, maybe first try to make it work to spec. Because otherwise it is entirely worthless.

If you are reasonably good at making it work, you can then make it right and maybe even fast.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#42

Post by krautsourced » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 1:11 PM UTC

jajko wrote: post #13

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

And this is general approach, nothing malevolent against IT geeks like some less experienced try to project themselves. They want plumbers also just to keep things running and implement requirements, not have academic discussions about fine art of optimized water flow. Companies are there to make money for the owners and thats it, not on some altruistic missions. I think OP could be better served in academia as long…

The last bit is very true - companies are making money for the owners _and_ to pay the programmer's often relatively high salary.

It's a general rule in life that the more 'fun' or 'fulfilling' your job is, the more likely it is to pay peanuts.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#43

Post by ckdarby » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 1:11 PM UTC

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

Your "beautiful" code won't be around if the company isn't around.

If you want to do that then build a open source project and a company around it.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#44

Post by msephton » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 1:12 PM UTC

the_real_cher wrote: post #25

msephton wrote: post #3

Solution: go independent, work on your own ideas, and sell them to consumers. That might be your own start-up, but for me it was to become an indie game developer. One of my games, YOYOZO, was featured in Ars Technica's "Best Video Games of 2023" so I feel my decision was the right one.

what game Dev stack do you use?

I develop mainly for Playdate, so use the Playdate SDK and write Lua code.

So everything is created from blank files. A far cry from Godot, Unreal, Unity, Game Maker.

You might find this interesting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38372936

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#45

Post by ricardo81 » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 1:12 PM UTC

andy99 wrote: post #26

ricardo81 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>corporate world That was my take, and an unwillingness to compromise on their principles. Sometimes the compromise may be less money but a more fulfilling role.

> Sometimes the compromise may be less money but a more fulfilling role Once one reaches a point in their career where they have options this is almost universally true. It's in fact the reason why some jobs pay more, because they need to for people to do them instead of something more fulfilling. I've had jobs where I thought with a few changes this would be awesome, but eventually realized it's those few difference…

Fair point. Maybe it applies to more experienced people who can afford to pick and choose.

The article didn't mention their financial circumstance, I got the vibe it was someone younger. It read a little disjointed and it's hard to tell whether they sought jobs they believed in or whether they were satisfying an imperative financial need.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#46

Post by andrewfromx » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 1:13 PM UTC

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

depends on your manager! I just recently told an engineer "well this is more art vs science, so paint the picture anyway you want" and left it to them to write the code the right way.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#47

Post by vaylian » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 1:13 PM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #19

> 90% of the time when I read descriptions it is excruciatingly obvious to me that whatever code the chosen candidates will end up writing at this job will be completely removed from any important problem not only humanity, but even any individual human has ever had > ... > So far I haven’t had the chance to actually meet someone who would share these values in any significant sense and would want to do this kind of…

> You're totally looking in the wrong places.

Are there some places you can recommend?

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#48

Post by breckenedge » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 1:13 PM UTC

My take on this is that engineering used to be more involved in the product side of the house, but that went away with the rise of PMs and designers. Remote work has made it a bit harder to collaborate, and companies are more willing to hire developers across timezones to save a buck.

Figma made it really easy to create high fidelity mockups, which took away UX decision-making from engineering. Many developers are happy to oblige, not wanting to be a part of any discussions.

So, what to do about this? That is probably a whole nother series of blog articles.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#49

Post by colund » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 1:13 PM UTC

msephton wrote: post #3

Solution: go independent, work on your own ideas, and sell them to consumers. That might be your own start-up, but for me it was to become an indie game developer. One of my games, YOYOZO, was featured in Ars Technica's "Best Video Games of 2023" so I feel my decision was the right one.

Out of curiosity, how did you support yourself financially while creating the game? Did you also do freelancing or did you use savings etc?

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#50

Post by halfmatthalfcat » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 1:14 PM UTC

fuzzy2 wrote: post #41

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

I think “industry” strongly implies “corporate world”. However > The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. Guess I’m the corporate world then! Listen here, dear colleagues: Before attempting any finesse, abstraction, wit or beauty, maybe first try to make it work to spec. Because otherwise it is entirely worthless . If you are reasonably good at making it work, you…

I just wanted to make it more explicit since this issue isn't specific to software developers, every career grapples with the "right way" versus the "economically prudent way" in our (US) capitalistic society. That in and of itself isn't bad, take capitalism however you want, but the point is managing expectations to the reality that exists in front of us, not the one you wish it could be.